2018 Camry I4 XSE 0W-16
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Originally Posted By: kaminski54
Originally Posted By: webfors
No way you're getting 5% improved fuel economy going from 0w20 to 0w16.
I doubt it is even 1%.
+10
Originally Posted By: webfors
No way you're getting 5% improved fuel economy going from 0w20 to 0w16.
I doubt it is even 1%.
+10
Before you know it, 0W-20 will be the new 20W-50 and people will lose their minds if you put 0W-20 in a car speccing 0W-16.
How long do you think it will be until a HM 0w16 comes out?
Originally Posted By: 14Accent
Last I checked, Toyota's still had the "MAINT REQD" light. Is that not a real OLM?
Not as commonly understood. It's nothing more than a simple distance-based reminder, the electronic equivalent of mileage reminders that have been around since at least the 1970's.
Last I checked, Toyota's still had the "MAINT REQD" light. Is that not a real OLM?
Not as commonly understood. It's nothing more than a simple distance-based reminder, the electronic equivalent of mileage reminders that have been around since at least the 1970's.
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: 14Accent
Last I checked, Toyota's still had the "MAINT REQD" light. Is that not a real OLM?
Not as commonly understood. It's nothing more than a simple distance-based reminder, the electronic equivalent of mileage reminders that have been around since at least the 1970's.
I agree, it's just a mileage timer.
I like my 2014 Mazda 3. I have the option to set a mileage based reminder or have the computer actually calculate oil life based on driving conditions. I don't understand why all cars down have this in 2017. Person a can go 10k if he does highway driving. A short tripping mom, taking kids to and from school, idling here, there, EVERYWHERE, needs a shorter OCI even on the same car.
Originally Posted By: 14Accent
Last I checked, Toyota's still had the "MAINT REQD" light. Is that not a real OLM?
Not as commonly understood. It's nothing more than a simple distance-based reminder, the electronic equivalent of mileage reminders that have been around since at least the 1970's.
I agree, it's just a mileage timer.
I like my 2014 Mazda 3. I have the option to set a mileage based reminder or have the computer actually calculate oil life based on driving conditions. I don't understand why all cars down have this in 2017. Person a can go 10k if he does highway driving. A short tripping mom, taking kids to and from school, idling here, there, EVERYWHERE, needs a shorter OCI even on the same car.
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Originally Posted By: kaminski54
Hello All,
Can engines really be built that have such tolerances and oil pathways that a 30 grade oil will be restricted in flow? If so, are these engines what we are now seeing? Is this just a ploy by Toyota to capture market share on oil until/if the big oil companies start mass producing 0W-16?
Any other thoughts, research, or recommendations?
I say they can and I think 0w-16 is right on point. I'm running a 0w-20 but these 0w-16s arent too far off. Whats the cst @ 100, on the 0w-20, it's around 8.6 even off the shelf like PP and M1 AFE as well as my Japanese brand Idemitsu, which is in the range of 30 weights on the Lower RANGE. I am sure the 16s work similarly.
Hello All,
Can engines really be built that have such tolerances and oil pathways that a 30 grade oil will be restricted in flow? If so, are these engines what we are now seeing? Is this just a ploy by Toyota to capture market share on oil until/if the big oil companies start mass producing 0W-16?
Any other thoughts, research, or recommendations?
I say they can and I think 0w-16 is right on point. I'm running a 0w-20 but these 0w-16s arent too far off. Whats the cst @ 100, on the 0w-20, it's around 8.6 even off the shelf like PP and M1 AFE as well as my Japanese brand Idemitsu, which is in the range of 30 weights on the Lower RANGE. I am sure the 16s work similarly.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bbhero
Now that was funny.
How long did it take for you to chew that open??
Classic
One thing I wonder about 0w16... In Japan where there are no where near amount of roads that can produce a high number of hours cruising at higher speeds aka excess of 75 mph... How well would 0w16 hold up in a trip across Texas on Interstate 10 for 800 plus miles in the summer time?? Ambient temps above 100°F with road surface temps exceeding 170°F. In Japan where short to very short trips are the norm... In moderate temps.. The oil will likely never get all the way up to full operating temp in drives less than 20 minutes. It is just a far different set of circumstances here in the US than over there. I would wonder about this type of circumstance plus a number of others as well.
I am not saying it can't do all right. Or that a 0w16 cannot work. It may very well be more than up for those types of very harsh conditions. I have heard that the 0w16 oils seemingly look "better" than a comparable 0w20. That may well be true indeed. Thus negating any possible bad outcomes. Going to be interesting to see how this all turns out over time.
This is exactly my concern. I don't do a ton of long highway trips, but have concerns if I did. I can see the engineers using a thinner oil to be beneficial for tons of cold starts and short trips as that is probably the majority of drivers, but is it at the expense of long trippers? I also have several 5 gallon jugs of PUP 0W-20 I'd like to use. I've always had great results with it. I guess this what I get for being an early adopter. There just isn't much data out there yet for this engine or 16 grade oil.
Now that was funny.
How long did it take for you to chew that open??
Classic
One thing I wonder about 0w16... In Japan where there are no where near amount of roads that can produce a high number of hours cruising at higher speeds aka excess of 75 mph... How well would 0w16 hold up in a trip across Texas on Interstate 10 for 800 plus miles in the summer time?? Ambient temps above 100°F with road surface temps exceeding 170°F. In Japan where short to very short trips are the norm... In moderate temps.. The oil will likely never get all the way up to full operating temp in drives less than 20 minutes. It is just a far different set of circumstances here in the US than over there. I would wonder about this type of circumstance plus a number of others as well.
I am not saying it can't do all right. Or that a 0w16 cannot work. It may very well be more than up for those types of very harsh conditions. I have heard that the 0w16 oils seemingly look "better" than a comparable 0w20. That may well be true indeed. Thus negating any possible bad outcomes. Going to be interesting to see how this all turns out over time.
This is exactly my concern. I don't do a ton of long highway trips, but have concerns if I did. I can see the engineers using a thinner oil to be beneficial for tons of cold starts and short trips as that is probably the majority of drivers, but is it at the expense of long trippers? I also have several 5 gallon jugs of PUP 0W-20 I'd like to use. I've always had great results with it. I guess this what I get for being an early adopter. There just isn't much data out there yet for this engine or 16 grade oil.
Originally Posted By: JoelB
I'm sure this talk was had many times over when 0w20 was first used. But look at all the cars using it today with no issues. I'd just run the 0w16 and let it go.
I would be more apt to keep using the 0W-16 if it wasn't over $7 a quart. I just can't justify that price for an oil that some have said is inferior at least in base stocks. (Maybe I'm wrong) I can't find any info on development of 16 grade by Pennzoil or Mobile 1, my 2 first choices respectively.
I'm sure this talk was had many times over when 0w20 was first used. But look at all the cars using it today with no issues. I'd just run the 0w16 and let it go.
I would be more apt to keep using the 0W-16 if it wasn't over $7 a quart. I just can't justify that price for an oil that some have said is inferior at least in base stocks. (Maybe I'm wrong) I can't find any info on development of 16 grade by Pennzoil or Mobile 1, my 2 first choices respectively.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The a25a-fks engine specs are very similar to the Mazda 2.5 SkyActiv.
10k oci on a GDI engine? I would be cautious. Lots of short tripping? 5k would be a start. Predominantly highway miles? 7.5k would work. Having a uoa done with fuel dilution numbers will give you some guidance.
I'm actually reviewing the service manual for the a25a-fks, and it is a remarkably complex engine. The most unique feature I can see is the dual port and direct injection system. For lower RPM and light load, port is used, middle RPM and load both, and high RPM direct.
The a25a-fks engine specs are very similar to the Mazda 2.5 SkyActiv.
10k oci on a GDI engine? I would be cautious. Lots of short tripping? 5k would be a start. Predominantly highway miles? 7.5k would work. Having a uoa done with fuel dilution numbers will give you some guidance.
I'm actually reviewing the service manual for the a25a-fks, and it is a remarkably complex engine. The most unique feature I can see is the dual port and direct injection system. For lower RPM and light load, port is used, middle RPM and load both, and high RPM direct.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Good to see a spin on oil filter instead of silly cartridge filter.
Cartridge filters arent silly at all if implemented correctly. More like Toyota engineers were being silly with their designs...
OP, great pictures, super clean filter media. Glad you created your own evidence to justify not doing short OCIs. Looks like that engine and oil is a winner!
Lots of people had oil leaks from DIY'ers and quick lube places due to O-ring not properly installed or O-ring installed properly but not lubed.
Now a 2018 Camry is back on my list of possible cars to purchase. BMW has the best design for cartridge/ filter housing.
Because they implemented a silly design. The bolt-on designs from MB and BMW of old, and the current up-top GM design are just fine.
People get gasket leaks from spin-ons as well.
A cartridge underneath is just a nasty mess.
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Good to see a spin on oil filter instead of silly cartridge filter.
Cartridge filters arent silly at all if implemented correctly. More like Toyota engineers were being silly with their designs...
OP, great pictures, super clean filter media. Glad you created your own evidence to justify not doing short OCIs. Looks like that engine and oil is a winner!
Lots of people had oil leaks from DIY'ers and quick lube places due to O-ring not properly installed or O-ring installed properly but not lubed.
Now a 2018 Camry is back on my list of possible cars to purchase. BMW has the best design for cartridge/ filter housing.
Because they implemented a silly design. The bolt-on designs from MB and BMW of old, and the current up-top GM design are just fine.
People get gasket leaks from spin-ons as well.
A cartridge underneath is just a nasty mess.
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The a25a-fks engine specs are very similar to the Mazda 2.5 SkyActiv.
10k oci on a GDI engine? I would be cautious. Lots of short tripping? 5k would be a start. Predominantly highway miles? 7.5k would work. Having a uoa done with fuel dilution numbers will give you some guidance.
I'm actually reviewing the service manual for the a25a-fks, and it is a remarkably complex engine. The most unique feature I can see is the dual port and direct injection system. For lower RPM and light load, port is used, middle RPM and load both, and high RPM direct.
That's pretty smart on the part of Toyota engineering/design department.
One viscosity grade thicker in a xW20 provides higher MOFT and unlikely to cause any mechnaical harm ......
warranty issue aside as it's an administrative matter.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The a25a-fks engine specs are very similar to the Mazda 2.5 SkyActiv.
10k oci on a GDI engine? I would be cautious. Lots of short tripping? 5k would be a start. Predominantly highway miles? 7.5k would work. Having a uoa done with fuel dilution numbers will give you some guidance.
I'm actually reviewing the service manual for the a25a-fks, and it is a remarkably complex engine. The most unique feature I can see is the dual port and direct injection system. For lower RPM and light load, port is used, middle RPM and load both, and high RPM direct.
That's pretty smart on the part of Toyota engineering/design department.
One viscosity grade thicker in a xW20 provides higher MOFT and unlikely to cause any mechnaical harm ......
warranty issue aside as it's an administrative matter.
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
It also still specs 0w20 oil.
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
It also still specs 0w20 oil.
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
It also still specs 0w20 oil.
Which, again, begs the question is the new a25a-fks designed with ultra tight oil passageways (not bearing clearances) because it is a totally new engine? The base design of the 2GR V6 has been around since around 2005 and is pretty bulletproof. They've added D-4S duel injection and I'm sure a lot of other new technology, but the base engine/block remains the same. This would back up the higher grade 20w oil as the oil passages were designed over a decade ago. I know this is largely just my speculation, but I think it is at least a valid hypothesis.
Am I wrong? Does anyone agree/disagree?
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
It also still specs 0w20 oil.
Which, again, begs the question is the new a25a-fks designed with ultra tight oil passageways (not bearing clearances) because it is a totally new engine? The base design of the 2GR V6 has been around since around 2005 and is pretty bulletproof. They've added D-4S duel injection and I'm sure a lot of other new technology, but the base engine/block remains the same. This would back up the higher grade 20w oil as the oil passages were designed over a decade ago. I know this is largely just my speculation, but I think it is at least a valid hypothesis.
Am I wrong? Does anyone agree/disagree?
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
It also still specs 0w20 oil.
Which, again, begs the question is the new a25a-fks designed with ultra tight oil passageways (not bearing clearances) because it is a totally new engine? The base design of the 2GR V6 has been around since around 2005 and is pretty bulletproof. They've added D-4S duel injection and I'm sure a lot of other new technology, but the base engine/block remains the same. This would back up the higher grade 20w oil as the oil passages were designed over a decade ago. I know this is largely just my speculation, but I think it is at least a valid hypothesis.
Am I wrong? Does anyone agree/disagree?
Its designed to sludge up if you don't use the CAFE oil. Leave them on the lot.
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
The 2018 Camry V6 2GR still has the cartridge underneath.
It also still specs 0w20 oil.
Which, again, begs the question is the new a25a-fks designed with ultra tight oil passageways (not bearing clearances) because it is a totally new engine? The base design of the 2GR V6 has been around since around 2005 and is pretty bulletproof. They've added D-4S duel injection and I'm sure a lot of other new technology, but the base engine/block remains the same. This would back up the higher grade 20w oil as the oil passages were designed over a decade ago. I know this is largely just my speculation, but I think it is at least a valid hypothesis.
Am I wrong? Does anyone agree/disagree?
Its designed to sludge up if you don't use the CAFE oil. Leave them on the lot.
Originally Posted By: kaminski54
Which, again, begs the question is the new a25a-fks designed with ultra tight oil passageways (not bearing clearances) because it is a totally new engine? The base design of the 2GR V6 has been around since around 2005 and is pretty bulletproof. They've added D-4S duel injection and I'm sure a lot of other new technology, but the base engine/block remains the same. This would back up the higher grade 20w oil as the oil passages were designed over a decade ago. I know this is largely just my speculation, but I think it is at least a valid hypothesis.
Am I wrong? Does anyone agree/disagree?
The A25A seems like an evolution of the AR engine series but with more friction-reducing measures in place. It does use a variable-output oil pump to cut down on parasitic losses. http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain/engine/
Toyota was one of the last to jump on the DI/low-vis oil bandwagon but they had to because they sell a lot of cars and CAFE would punish them. We'll need to see a SAE whitepaper or the new car features write-up in TIS. It seems like 0W-20 could be used, and seeing the amount of Camrys that become taxis or Ubers it wouldn't be a bad idea to leave a loophole for thicker oil. The thinner oil can also help with thermodynamics as well, Toyota is pushing higher thermal efficiency from their engines.
It's part of Toyota's new "Dynamic Force" engine platform. The second engine in that line-up is the new twin-turbo V6 that will be in the Lexus LS500, the V35A.
Which, again, begs the question is the new a25a-fks designed with ultra tight oil passageways (not bearing clearances) because it is a totally new engine? The base design of the 2GR V6 has been around since around 2005 and is pretty bulletproof. They've added D-4S duel injection and I'm sure a lot of other new technology, but the base engine/block remains the same. This would back up the higher grade 20w oil as the oil passages were designed over a decade ago. I know this is largely just my speculation, but I think it is at least a valid hypothesis.
Am I wrong? Does anyone agree/disagree?
The A25A seems like an evolution of the AR engine series but with more friction-reducing measures in place. It does use a variable-output oil pump to cut down on parasitic losses. http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain/engine/
Toyota was one of the last to jump on the DI/low-vis oil bandwagon but they had to because they sell a lot of cars and CAFE would punish them. We'll need to see a SAE whitepaper or the new car features write-up in TIS. It seems like 0W-20 could be used, and seeing the amount of Camrys that become taxis or Ubers it wouldn't be a bad idea to leave a loophole for thicker oil. The thinner oil can also help with thermodynamics as well, Toyota is pushing higher thermal efficiency from their engines.
It's part of Toyota's new "Dynamic Force" engine platform. The second engine in that line-up is the new twin-turbo V6 that will be in the Lexus LS500, the V35A.
Narrowing oil passages would actually increase parasitic losses plus require two versions of the engine. One for CAFE and one for the rest of the world. It would also increase chances of a catastrophic lubrication failure from sludge or any other oil contamination.
Every time I read something to the effect of, "modern engines are too tight for thick oils" I make a rude noise. It is bad information. It is just wrong. Automakers have gone to global models. They build one engine and sell it globally. It is designed to operate globally. That new Toyota engine could run 20w-50. Its probably happiest with a 5 or 10w-30. They kept it at 0w-20 because that's what the engine needs for adequate lubrication. They'll spec thicker oil elsewhere as climate and usage require.
/endrant
Every time I read something to the effect of, "modern engines are too tight for thick oils" I make a rude noise. It is bad information. It is just wrong. Automakers have gone to global models. They build one engine and sell it globally. It is designed to operate globally. That new Toyota engine could run 20w-50. Its probably happiest with a 5 or 10w-30. They kept it at 0w-20 because that's what the engine needs for adequate lubrication. They'll spec thicker oil elsewhere as climate and usage require.
/endrant
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Narrowing oil passages would actually increase parasitic losses plus require two versions of the engine. One for CAFE and one for the rest of the world. It would also increase chances of a catastrophic lubrication failure from sludge or any other oil contamination.
Every time I read something to the effect of, "modern engines are too tight for thick oils" I make a rude noise. It is bad information. It is just wrong. Automakers have gone to global models. They build one engine and sell it globally. It is designed to operate globally. That new Toyota engine could run 20w-50. Its probably happiest with a 5 or 10w-30. They kept it at 0w-20 because that's what the engine needs for adequate lubrication. They'll spec thicker oil elsewhere as climate and usage require.
/endrant
You are right the engines are good enough to handle a wide range of oils. 0w20 to 15w40depending on cl8mate and service.
For most of them the 0w20is adequate. But just like the trucks and SUV’s manuals say, towing or severe service a higher viscosity may be used. I do think the lower viscosities are getting the technological additive focus though.
Narrowing oil passages would actually increase parasitic losses plus require two versions of the engine. One for CAFE and one for the rest of the world. It would also increase chances of a catastrophic lubrication failure from sludge or any other oil contamination.
Every time I read something to the effect of, "modern engines are too tight for thick oils" I make a rude noise. It is bad information. It is just wrong. Automakers have gone to global models. They build one engine and sell it globally. It is designed to operate globally. That new Toyota engine could run 20w-50. Its probably happiest with a 5 or 10w-30. They kept it at 0w-20 because that's what the engine needs for adequate lubrication. They'll spec thicker oil elsewhere as climate and usage require.
/endrant
You are right the engines are good enough to handle a wide range of oils. 0w20 to 15w40depending on cl8mate and service.
For most of them the 0w20is adequate. But just like the trucks and SUV’s manuals say, towing or severe service a higher viscosity may be used. I do think the lower viscosities are getting the technological additive focus though.
Originally Posted By: nthach
The A25A seems like an evolution of the AR engine series but with more friction-reducing measures in place. It does use a variable-output oil pump to cut down on parasitic losses. http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain/engine/
It's part of Toyota's new "Dynamic Force" engine platform. The second engine in that line-up is the new twin-turbo V6 that will be in the Lexus LS500, the V35A.
Thanks for the link.
It appears no improvement was done on manufacturing/surface technology on contacting parts such as bearings, liners etc.
Am I missing something ?
The A25A seems like an evolution of the AR engine series but with more friction-reducing measures in place. It does use a variable-output oil pump to cut down on parasitic losses. http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain/engine/
It's part of Toyota's new "Dynamic Force" engine platform. The second engine in that line-up is the new twin-turbo V6 that will be in the Lexus LS500, the V35A.
Thanks for the link.
It appears no improvement was done on manufacturing/surface technology on contacting parts such as bearings, liners etc.
Am I missing something ?
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Narrowing oil passages would actually increase parasitic losses plus require two versions of the engine. One for CAFE and one for the rest of the world. It would also increase chances of a catastrophic lubrication failure from sludge or any other oil contamination.
Every time I read something to the effect of, "modern engines are too tight for thick oils" I make a rude noise. It is bad information. It is just wrong. Automakers have gone to global models. They build one engine and sell it globally. It is designed to operate globally. That new Toyota engine could run 20w-50. Its probably happiest with a 5 or 10w-30. They kept it at 0w-20 because that's what the engine needs for adequate lubrication. They'll spec thicker oil elsewhere as climate and usage require.
/endrant
What you say makes perfect sense. I'll wait to hear what the early adopters have to say about 0W16 oil and how the engine holds up under severe service using it. For now all we're going to hear is a lot of speculation, educated, and uneducated guesses until they're out a few years and logged some miles in real world use.
Narrowing oil passages would actually increase parasitic losses plus require two versions of the engine. One for CAFE and one for the rest of the world. It would also increase chances of a catastrophic lubrication failure from sludge or any other oil contamination.
Every time I read something to the effect of, "modern engines are too tight for thick oils" I make a rude noise. It is bad information. It is just wrong. Automakers have gone to global models. They build one engine and sell it globally. It is designed to operate globally. That new Toyota engine could run 20w-50. Its probably happiest with a 5 or 10w-30. They kept it at 0w-20 because that's what the engine needs for adequate lubrication. They'll spec thicker oil elsewhere as climate and usage require.
/endrant
What you say makes perfect sense. I'll wait to hear what the early adopters have to say about 0W16 oil and how the engine holds up under severe service using it. For now all we're going to hear is a lot of speculation, educated, and uneducated guesses until they're out a few years and logged some miles in real world use.
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