Dodge Durango 3.6L - second run of HPL 5w-20 - 12,000 miles on oil - filter pictures at 5,000 mile change interval run from 147,000 - 152,000 miles

[RDY4WAR]

Elevated oil temps of 230°F? That's what my wife's car sees cruising. Endurance race cars see much higher than that. In NASCAR, it's 280-290°F sump temp and 350-360°F bearing temp stretched out at Daytona and Talladega. Late Models and Sprints are 300+°F. The lower level bombers and stockers are hitting 280°F (with 5W-20 oil). If you're only seeing 230°F oil temp on a long straight, you're likely letting a lot more air into the front bumper than you need to and giving up speed. Considering most racing oils hit their peak CoF around 300°F, you're leaving power on the table there as well.

 

[wwillson]

My oil temps are lower cruising at 100mph than they are sitting in traffic.

Your pistons, rings, liners, and bearings are smoking hot while you are cruising at 100MPH. All are lubricated parts and the oil temps there are also smoking hot.

 

[bhvrdr]

Elevated oil temps of 230°F? That's what my wife's car sees cruising. Endurance race cars see much higher than that. In NASCAR, it's 280-290°F sump temp and 350-360°F bearing temp stretched out at Daytona and Talladega. Late Models and Sprints are 300+°F. The lower level bombers and stockers are hitting 280°F (with 5W-20 oil). If you're only seeing 230°F oil temp on a long straight, you're likely letting a lot more air into the front bumper than you need to and giving up speed. Considering most racing oils hit their peak CoF around 300°F, you're leaving power on the table there as well.

I fear you are leading me a bit off topic here but the point I was trying to make is that my Durango cruising at 100 mph has oil temps at around 210° f.


My track car has an amazing amount of cooling for multiple components. I'm very familiar with some track vehicles that run in the 270s as I have had them before but now I have one that is designed for track use.

Here is my cosworth toolbox data....

 

[bhvrdr]

You pistons, rings, liners, and bearings are smoking hot while you are cruising at 100MPH. All are lubricated parts and the oil temps there are also smoking hot.

Check your oil temps cruising at 80mph. They're about 210f correct?

And the zf8 has your engine spinning at about 2200rpm at 80mph right?

You saw my oil and filter with a life of cruising at 100mph


Cold starts are so much worse than cruising at 2200rpm on warm oil.


Heck there's cars going 1.2 million miles on 30k mile intervals

800,000+ miles and still going strong

******************** Mileage update: Feb 11, 2011 600,447 miles ******************** I have a 2006 Honda Civic LX sedan 5spd manual, I purchased it used from a local Honda dealer with 22,000 miles on the odometer on 05/26/2007. It's currently at 203,284 miles, mostly interstate/parkway at...

www.8thcivic.com

 

[kschachn]

Cold starts are so much worse than cruising at 2200rpm on warm oil.

Worse how?

 

[OVERKILL]

Of course it is sludge.

It's not sludge, again, you clearly don't know what sludge is, I provided an excerpt from a tribology document that clearly outlines what sludge is. Sludge requires a moisture component.

You just posted that you had the same thing in a bmw that "...was pretty ugly under the valve cover"

Yes, it had a ton of dark varnish. The Expedition, which yielded the same stuff, was not ugly, and only had some very light varnish, zero sludge.

So that car was also sludged but the original posters is not?

The BMW was heavily varnished, as I noted. Please, read through the flow chart to properly understand the various types of deposits, you are using "sludge" rather broadly here, when it has a very specific meaning.

Again no one would purposefully make an oil that congeals your oil to the point of sludging the filter on purpose.

There's nothing being congealed, you are seeing the results of material being removed/picked-up, which is then held in suspension by the detergent/dispersant package, which ensures that it gets to the filter. That's the purpose of the DI package, to prevent agglomeration and to get contaminants to the filter, where they can be filtered out.

That's ridiculous.

You think if we contact M1 or HPL and ask if the oil is supposed to be congealed in the filter they're going to say "yes that's part of the design."

I've asked Dave @High Performance Lubricants about this, and yes, it's expected behaviour for the first few OCI's. Where do you think the stuff that's cleaned-up ends up if not in the filter?

This is sludge....

View attachment 156194

No, that's carbon, in oil.

The pictures you posted show sludge as well.

Again, you clearly don't know what sludge is. I highly encourage you to process and understand that flow-chart.

You are also implying, in maintaining that everything is sludge, that M1 EP 0W-20, run at reasonable intervals, "sludged" my RAM 1500 engine in 55,000km. How likely do you think that is?

Then you state...

"Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 changed per the OLM, which, unlike the FS 0W-40, was not advertised to provide any cleaning capability. "

Yes, Mobil 1 0W-40 was actually advertised as cleaning an engine, not just removing sludge, but actually cleaning up varnish and other deposits.

This is not correct.

View attachment 156196


View attachment 156197

That's sludge, not varnish. Sludge, which is soft and not bonded to surfaces like laquer or varnish, is very easy to remove. You don't need AN's or esters to remove it.

The verbiage for the 0W-40 is as follows, note the lack of the word sludge, they explicitly state that it has the ability to clean. This differs considerably from the language used for the EP products, and mirrors my experience with the two families.

I will add that it took several OCI's, around 4 IIRC, for the carbonaceous grit in my filter from our Expedition to begin to taper off, and eventually stop. I had run M1 5W-20 before that, and it didn't yield the grit, it wasn't until I switched to the 0W-40 that it appeared.

Given how few miles are on my 5.7L HEMI compared to Wayne's Durango, I fully expect this next filter to have little to no material in it. And, I'd assume, given that its life prior was on EP 0W-20 with reasonable intervals, that the Mobil product kept the engine very clean for the most part.

 

[bhvrdr]

It's not sludge, again, you clearly don't know what sludge is, I provided an excerpt from a tribology document that clearly outlines what sludge is. Sludge requires a moisture component.

Yes, it had a ton of dark varnish. The Expedition, which yielded the same stuff, was not ugly, and only had some very light varnish, zero sludge.

The BMW was heavily varnished, as I noted. Please, read through the flow chart to properly understand the various types of deposits, you are using "sludge" rather broadly here, when it has a very specific meaning.

There's nothing being congealed, you are seeing the results of material being removed/picked-up, which is then held in suspension by the detergent/dispersant package, which ensures that it gets to the filter. That's the purpose of the DI package, to prevent agglomeration and to get contaminants to the filter, where they can be filtered out.

I've asked Dave @High Performance Lubricants about this, and yes, it's expected behaviour for the first few OCI's. Where do you think the stuff that's cleaned-up ends up if not in the filter?

No, that's carbon, in oil.

Again, you clearly don't know what sludge is. I highly encourage you to process and understand that flow-chart.

You are also implying, in maintaining that everything is sludge, that M1 EP 0W-20, run at reasonable intervals, "sludged" my RAM 1500 engine in 55,000km. How likely do you think that is?

Yes, Mobil 1 0W-40 was actually advertised as cleaning an engine, not just removing sludge, but actually cleaning up varnish and other deposits.
View attachment 156234

That's sludge, not varnish. Sludge, which is soft and not bonded to surfaces like laquer or varnish, is very easy to remove. You don't need AN's or esters to remove it.

The verbiage for the 0W-40 is as follows, note the lack of word sludge, they explicitly note it just has the ability to clean. This differs considerably from the language used for the EP products, and mirrors my experience with the two families of products.
View attachment 156236

M1 0w20 EP has ester and indicates "... helping remove sludge buildup in one oil change...". And ".... keeping your engine clean...". While also stating it has all the benefits listed for their synthetic oils including the words cleaning.


I'd think this might be indicative of cleaning.

 

[The Critic]

I'd think this might be indicative of cleaning.

If we're going to debate marketing information, I don't think this discussion going anywhere. Those statements are essentially a subjective interpretation of objective facts.

 

[bhvrdr]

If we're going to debate marketing information, I don't think this discussion going anywhere. Those statements are essentially a subjective interpretation of objective facts.

Agree. Not sure why he brought it up in post 86.

We know both have esters.

 

[OVERKILL]

M1 0w20 EP has ester

Mobil does not advertise it as having esters. Virgin oxidation for it does not point to significant ester content either. Even used, oxidation was only 17, which does not point to much, if any, ester content. HPL, virgin, is 24 in comparison.
M1 EP 0W-20 on the top (UOA), HPL 0W-20 on the bottom (VOA):

Here's M1 FS 0W-40 in comparison, note the virgin oxidation is the same as HPL:

and indicates "... helping remove sludge buildup in one oil change...".

Yes, because sludge isn't adhered to anything. The detergent/dispersant package can break-up sludge and pull it into suspension. You need something polar or with very high solubility to remove varnish and other adhesive deposits, which AN's and esters provide.

And ".... keeping your engine clean...".

Keeping your engine clean is a requirement under the deposit prevention sequence. This is what the primary function of the DI package is. Not removing existing deposits, but preventing deposits from forming. The dispersants prevent contaminants from agglomerating while the detergents encapsulate them, keeping them in suspension, so that they can be moved to the filter.
both sets of pistons in this slide passed the test for deposit prevention:

While also stating it has all the benefits listed for their synthetic oils including the words cleaning.


I'd think this might be indicative of cleaning.

It's not.

Cleaning requires AN's and/or esters; requires something polar, unless you consider rinsing away sludge "cleaning", which every oil is capable of doing to some extent because it's not bonded and not baked-on.

This is what separates the claim for the 0W-40 (no mention of sludge) from the 0W-20 (explicitly speaks to sludge). And, as I noted, this mirrors my experience with the two products.

 

[bhvrdr]

Worse how?

Cold start is where the majority of engine wear occurs. Even the thinnest of 0w12 motor oils are 2-3x times thicker at cold start than a 5w50 at 210f. You also have cylinder washdown for cat heating

 

[The Critic]

To summarize recent events:

- We have multiple members, including the OP, who are finding elevated quantities of "deposits" in their oil filters after running a HPL product. There is some debate on the source of these deposits; one poster suspects the deposits are being continually generated since the anatomy of a piston makes it impossible for a piston to retain this quantity of debris.
- Some members are running extended intervals with HPL, others are not. Some of these vehicles may have a history of extended oil change intervals, others do not.
- UOA's are being used to validate oil drain intervals. Historically, UOA's are not the only tool being used to determine drain intervals, at least not at the OEM level. The OP's super-extended interval in conjunction with these "deposits" makes one person very suspicious of this entire experiment.

 

[kschachn]

Cold start is where the majority of engine wear occurs. Even the thinnest of 0w12 motor oils are 2-3x times thicker at cold start than a 5w50 at 210f. You also have cylinder washdown for cat heating

Actually, no it does not. Cold start is not the predominant source of wear. Film thickness is what prevents wear so as long as the oil is being pumped (related to the winter rating) then a cold start is not where the majority of wear occurs.

This is a common fallacy, and we’ve had a long discussion on here about it along with technical papers showing that it is not true.

 

[bhvrdr]

Actually, no it does not. Cold start is not the predominant source of wear. Film thickness is what prevents wear so as long as the oil is being pumped (related to the winter rating) then a cold start is not where the majority of wear occurs.

This is a common fallacy, and we’ve had a long discussion on here about it along with technical papers showing that it is not true.

Let's try to keep this thread on topic but if you'll point me to that thread I'll be happy to post literature views from sae.org for which I am a member

 

[kschachn]

Let's try to keep this thread on topic but if you'll point me to that thread I'll be happy to post literature views from sae.org for which I am a member

I’d love to see that, the papers posted here showed most wear occurs during warm-up since the oil is thinning and the major anti-wear additives are not yet activated.

One never prevents wear with thinner oils (or rather lower HT/HS).

 

[bhvrdr]

I’d love to see that, the papers posted here showed most wear occurs during warm-up since the oil is thinning and the major anti-wear additives are not yet activated.

One never prevents wear with thinner oils (or rather lower HT/HS).

During warm up would mean not yet at temp.

Again could you please direct me to the thread as I've yet to see ANY peer reviewed papers show FMEP higher at operating temperature than cold start.

I can post multiple peer reviewed studies as well as lit reviews all in agreement with test results.


Literature review of multiple studies...

 

[kschachn]

I think you can find it if you look around.

And yes friction and shear loss of course, but wear?

 

[bhvrdr]

I think you can find it if you look around.

And yes friction and shear loss of course, but wear?

I apologize I did not. I found one thread with a study that didn't even include a study of cold start.

Cold Start wear studies

Hello there, not the most original thread out there I know, but I tried hard in searching the exact same take on this matter without luck. Beside the obvious (that a 5w or 0w have similar performances starting from cold over 0°C) I assumed that a lower weight (w20 over w30), and so lower HTHS...

bobistheoilguy.com

Then this one wear the only poster who bothered to post test results instead of opinion was post 17 showing more wear at startup.

Engine startup wear understanding

Hello all, I know there is a lot of oil company marketing regarding engine startup wear and how to reduce it, etc. Motor oils have various anti-wear additives that are more effective at different temperature ranges. So, tell me if I am wrong, but it seems most of the wear occurs in that middle...

bobistheoilguy.com

But I assume since you posted about the thread that shows all these studies that conflict you can link me please so I can post a full lit review. And can explain what FMEP relates to friction and wear in studies. Friction is bad for wear to simplify

 

[kschachn]

I apologize I did not. I found one thread with a study that didn't even include a study of cold start.

Cold Start wear studies

Hello there, not the most original thread out there I know, but I tried hard in searching the exact same take on this matter without luck. Beside the obvious (that a 5w or 0w have similar performances starting from cold over 0°C) I assumed that a lower weight (w20 over w30), and so lower HTHS...

bobistheoilguy.com

Then this one wear the only poster who bothered to post test results instead of opinion was post 17 showing more wear at startup.

Engine startup wear understanding

Hello all, I know there is a lot of oil company marketing regarding engine startup wear and how to reduce it, etc. Motor oils have various anti-wear additives that are more effective at different temperature ranges. So, tell me if I am wrong, but it seems most of the wear occurs in that middle...

bobistheoilguy.com

But I assume since you posted about the thread that shows all these studies that conflict you can link me please so I can post a full lit review...

If I find it I’ll post it.

 

[wwillson]

Check your oil temps cruising at 80mph. They're about 210f correct?

No, about 195°F

And the zf8 has your engine spinning at about 2200rpm at 80mph right?

I think it's 2150, but close enough.

The hottest I ever saw the oil temperature was with the throttle at zero. How? About 8 years ago, I was using the engine as a brake while descending one of the steep grades on I-70 west of Denver. I held the engine RPMs at about 4,000 for several minutes and watched the oil temp climb to 239°F. All the heat was from friction, imagine how hot the ring/piston/bore interfaces were. Maybe that's when I picked up the coked ring lands? The hottest I've ever seen the engine oil temp while running at full throttle and about 3,000 RPMs was 218°F while ascending one of the steep grades on I-70 west of Denver.