Toyota Traded Quality for Quantity

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Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: PT1
I have 3 Toyota products right now but all have the Denso ETC system which is fine.


PT1, I hate to burst your bubble, but most acceleration accidents happened with the Denso pedal. There are no KNOWN accidents atributed the CTS part. Maybe they stick all right and are potentially dangerous, but are not deadly so far.
If you don't believe me go to the NHTSA webside and compare speed control incidents in both Denso equipped (japanese made) and CTS equipped (NA made) toyotas. Check your year and model too. Quite revealing.
I'm surprized general media didn't figure it out and repeat after toyota that they have the fix. Wishful thinking.


That is surprising news. I was under impression that CTS made the bad pedals.
 
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine

That is surprising news. I was under impression that CTS made the bad pedals.


Quote:
As has been publically stated by Toyota, we have no knowledge of any accidents or injuries that have resulted from this rare potential condition. Based on information that Toyota has provided us, we are aware of fewer than a dozen instances where this condition has occurred, and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition.

As Toyota stated, this recall is different from and unrelated to the “sudden, unintended acceleration issue” which was the subject of the November 2009 Toyota recall. In the November recall, the pedals in Toyota models dated back to model year 2002. CTS became a pedal supplier in 2005.


from http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/press_releases/nr100127.htm
 
I have no knowledge either way but if that's the case then it's looking more like a Toyota design spec and or software problem than just sticky accelerator pedal assemblies.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
.....but most acceleration accidents happened with the Denso pedal. There are no KNOWN accidents atributed the CTS part.

I'm surprized general media didn't figure it out and repeat after toyota that they have the fix. Wishful thinking.



The MSM is nothing but a tool that regurgetates what they are fed to tell us. Thank you for finally bringing this FACT into this thread. I was waiting to see the rzappas of the world jump on the blame CTS bandwagon.

When you consider that we are on a forum filled with "car guys" and you are the first to point out this fact, it doesn't surprise me at all. Seems it's just much easier to blame an American supplier than the real culprit
 
I'd like to add that although this situation is horrible for the families that lost loved ones in related accidents it may be a blessing in disguise for future customers no matter which maker they buy from...I think this debacle was a BIG RED FLAG for those companies that the drive for the elusive maximal profit CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED anymore...

I think this applies to all manufacturers of products that when they fail can cause catostrophic loss of human life.....YOU WILL BE CAUGHT AND IT WILL COST YOU MUCH MORE THAN THE FEW PENNIES YOU TRIED TO SAVE......
 
Originally Posted By: c502cid
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: c502cid
Total [censored] that any supplier can change factories (much less countries of origin!) without approval from the manufacturer. I do too much business with all of them and contracts specify this very clearly, along with the design specs of each part. A supplier has little or no say in making of the part, just gets to push the "run" button.


Well we would all like to think so...but many many suppliers have been caught moving part production, substituting sub-contractors from China or India to make components, using sub standard materials. You are probably talking about job shops. CTS is a make to black box spec supplier. Lots of suppliers cheat the system.


Sorry PT1, you are guessing to support your claim. It just isn't true.


Very true...I have been working in the automotive industry 30 years and have seen it many times from major tier suppliers too.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: PT1
I have 3 Toyota products right now but all have the Denso ETC system which is fine.


PT1, I hate to burst your bubble, but most acceleration accidents happened with the Denso pedal. There are no KNOWN accidents atributed the CTS part. Maybe they stick all right and are potentially dangerous, but are not deadly so far.
If you don't believe me go to the NHTSA webside and compare speed control incidents in both Denso equipped (japanese made) and CTS equipped (NA made) toyotas. Check your year and model too. Quite revealing.
I'm surprized general media didn't figure it out and repeat after toyota that they have the fix. Wishful thinking.


I don't have a bubble...what I do have is 4 friends who work at CTS. They made the faulty ETC's.
 
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
I'd like to add that although this situation is horrible for the families that lost loved ones in related accidents it may be a blessing in disguise for future customers no matter which maker they buy from...I think this debacle was a BIG RED FLAG for those companies that the drive for the elusive maximal profit CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED anymore...


This was not intentional on the part of Toyota. These types of issues happen when companies use global manufacturing systems and computer analysis and statistical analysis. Sometimes the people just make mistakes. some mistakes result in fenders rusting through, windows leaking, tires blowing out and some injure the consumers. The current NHTSA watchdog method is by far the very best in the world. But all companies will strive for maximum profit no mater what....but the mistakes will cost them.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

When you consider that we are on a forum filled with "car guys" and you are the first to point out this fact, it doesn't surprise me at all. Seems it's just much easier to blame an American supplier than the real culprit


There is no "culprit" here. And there is no nationality that is creating this issue unless you consider a Japanese Manufacturer buying parts from an American company that makes those parts in Canada...
crazy2.gif
Everyone wants to assign blame...well Toyota gets the blame because they are the car maker. PERIOD. When you walk into a Toyota dealership you don't get to order a CTS or Denso ETC on your car. So it really doesn't matter if Harry Potter made the bad ETC...Toyota put it on their car that has their badge on it so they are wearing the jacket....and they will be made to pay in a lot of painful ways and rightfully so.
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
well Toyota gets the blame because they are the car maker. PERIOD. When you walk into a Toyota dealership you don't get to order a CTS or Denso ETC on your car. So it really doesn't matter if Harry Potter made the bad ETC...Toyota put it on their car that has their badge on it so they are wearing the jacket....and they will be made to pay in a lot of painful ways and rightfully so.

I totally agree with you. Now it is probably known here that I am a GM Guy, but they don't get the free pass from me some Toyota folks are giving out as they try to blame the pedal maker. Rember the faulty windhshield washer fluid heater in some GM cars that could cause a fire? The company who made them screwed up it was proven, it was of course GMs fault because they accepted the product and it put in their car. I remeber everyone blaming GM about it. No one even cared who made it. It is in GMs car so it is their fault. You would get the typical GM sucks and they can't make a product blah blah. Same thing here, put the blame where it belongs. Toyota accepted the product and used in in their cars. Now that it has happened to them, the Toyota folks just don't want to accept that it was a mistake by them.
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
The current NHTSA watchdog method is by far the very best in the world.


Really?

From http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sud...ation-timeline/

Quote:

September 22 [2003]
NHTSA denies the Boddaert petition (DP03003). The agency says that its analysis of speed control complaints involving the Lexus and other peer luxury vehicles shows that Toyota is not a statistical stand-out..

July 22 [2004]
ODI closes its investigation of 2002-2003 Camrys, Camry Solara and Lexus 300ES vehicles without finding a defect (PE04021). The agency concluded with its standard caveat: “A defect trend has not been identified at this time and further use of agency resources does not appear to be warranted. Accordingly, this investigation is closed. The closing of this investigation does not constitute a finding by NHTSA that a safety-related defect does not exist. The Agency will take further action if warranted by the circumstances.”

December 15 [2005]
NHTSA memos document two separate inspections performed, one of Jordan Ziprin’s vehicle in Arizona and another involving a crash in Falls Church, VA. The agency notes no abnormalities or faults other than body damage were found.

January 5 [2006]
NHTSA closes DP05002 and denies the Ziprin petition. NHTSA says it examined 1172 owner complaints in a population of 7 million vehicles and could find no trend.

March 5 [2007]
NHTSA denies the Jefferson stating it has not identified a vehicle-based defect, nor was it able to witness such an event when road testing the Petitioner’s vehicle. An evaluation of a suspect throttle actuator removed from the Petitioner’s vehicle did not reveal a component problem. Warranty and parts sales of the actuator are unremarkable. There is no evidence of a wide-spread defect or ongoing concern.
Agency notes: “This in no way implies that we doubt the Petitioner’s reported experiences with his vehicle. Rather, the agency simply lacks evidence of a safety related defect in his vehicle or a trend of such defects in the subject vehicles. In view of the foregoing, it is unlikely that NHTSA would issue an order for the notification and remedy of a safety-related defect as alleged by the Petitioner in the subject vehicles at the conclusion of the requested investigation. Therefore, in view of the need to allocate and prioritize NHTSA’s limited resources to best accomplish the agency’s safety mission, the petition is denied.”

August 27 [2008]
NHTSA closes investigation its investigation into Tacomas (DP08001) and denies Kronholm petition. The agency concludes that they are unable to find one possible explanation and have been unable to determine a cause for SUA complaints in Tacomas.
The agency notes: “For those vehicles where the throttle control system did not perform as the owner believes it should have, the information suggesting a possible defect related to motor vehicle safety is quite limited. Additional investigation is unlikely to result in a finding that a defect related to motor vehicle safety exists or a NHTSA order for the notification and remedy of a safety-related defect as requested by the petitioner. Therefore, in view of the need to allocate and prioritize NHTSA’s limited resources to best accomplish the agency’s safety mission, the petition is denied.”

October 28 [2009]
NHTSA closes Defect Petition 09001. The Office of Defects Analysis concludes 78 percent of the complaints involved incidents of floor mat interference, including all of the crashes and injuries:
“Therefore, ODI’s analysis found that the only defect trend related to vehicle speed control in the subject vehicles involved the potential for accelerator pedals to become trapped near the floor by out-of-position or inappropriate floor mat installations.”


NHTSA clearly sided with Toyota and not with car owners who were trying their best to rectify the problem. It will be interesting to see the upcoming congressional inquiry into this.
 
LOL, I guess you put a lot more faith into congress than I do. Like congress knows cars. Oh wait...they do own 2 car companies.....
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
[

This was not intentional on the part of Toyota. These types of issues happen when companies use global manufacturing systems and computer analysis and statistical analysis. Sometimes the people just make mistakes. some mistakes result in fenders rusting through, windows leaking, tires blowing out and some injure the consumers. The current NHTSA watchdog method is by far the very best in the world. But all companies will strive for maximum profit no mater what....but the mistakes will cost them.


I don't believe it WAS INTENTIONAL in a malicious way..yet it is clear that MANY companies are so focused in cost reduction that it BLINDS them from seeing the entire picture..Toyota isn't the only suspect of course....the business culture/community has to start resisting the pull of short term profts to please over demanding share holders..
 
Originally Posted By: willix
Ford, GM , or Chyseler never did that. Did they?


Nope.

Unless you consider GM's infamous "Ivey Memo". For decades, GM estimated that 300 to 500 people a year were killed in fires that erupt in its vehicles when they crashed. But they calculated that the costs of settling lawsuits was cheaper than the engineering solution...all outlined in a memo that was leaked. This was a landmark case that opened the floodgates for huge product-liability lawsuits.

Or Ford's C4 tranny that had a habit of jumping from park to reverse. 200 people were killed, and over 1400 were injured over the course of several years. The result was the largest automotive recall in history - 23 million cars. The cost of this would have bankrupted Ford, and Reagan didn't want to kill the company (we just emerged from the Carter-era recession). So a deal was struck that took away the government's power to order mandatory recalls. The final solution was that Ford sent 23 million warning stickers to owners, instructing them to affix the sticker to their dashboards. The sticker basically said that the transmission could cause injury or death. It was also reported that Ford paid $20,000,000 to settle lawsuits before they went to court (not uncommon, even today).

These are two of the largest auto safety related stories from the past. The Ivey Memo paved the way for the gigantic product liability lawsuits - for society as a whole - that we all know about today. If you're old enough to remember, these were HUGE deals. History will show if the current situation ranks up there.

All of this is a huge black-eye for Toyota (and CTS), no doubt. Tragic? No doubt. But the current situation is neither unprecedented, nor the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the automobile.

All auto fatalities are terrible. Something must be done to limit the 40,000 Americans that die on our roads and highways every year. Think about that number...that's how many soldiers we lost in Vietnam, and we lose that many civilians to car crashes every year.
 
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The only thing I would enjoy about the Gov't having it out over this would be the chance to get to listen to Bob Corker from Tennessee!
 
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Originally Posted By: rszappa1
I bet they rebound.....and honda will beome even stornger...


My bet if Ford will come out stronger too. My parents are looking for a new car, Toyota is no longer on their list. It moved from #1 to off the list. I would venture to say a lot of people, especially older people are thinking along the same lines. JMO

In time this will pass, every major auto maker had problems over the years, some worse than others.
 
Originally Posted By: robbobster
Originally Posted By: willix
Ford, GM , or Chyseler never did that. Did they?


Nope.

Unless you consider GM's infamous "Ivey Memo". For decades, GM estimated that 300 to 500 people a year were killed in fires that erupt in its vehicles when they crashed. But they calculated that the costs of settling lawsuits was cheaper than the engineering solution...all outlined in a memo that was leaked. This was a landmark case that opened the floodgates for huge product-liability lawsuits.

Or Ford's C4 tranny that had a habit of jumping from park to reverse. 200 people were killed, and over 1400 were injured over the course of several years. The result was the largest automotive recall in history - 23 million cars. The cost of this would have bankrupted Ford, and Reagan didn't want to kill the company (we just emerged from the Carter-era recession). So a deal was struck that took away the government's power to order mandatory recalls. The final solution was that Ford sent 23 million warning stickers to owners, instructing them to affix the sticker to their dashboards. The sticker basically said that the transmission could cause injury or death. It was also reported that Ford paid $20,000,000 to settle lawsuits before they went to court (not uncommon, even today).

These are two of the largest auto safety related stories from the past. The Ivey Memo paved the way for the gigantic product liability lawsuits - for society as a whole - that we all know about today. If you're old enough to remember, these were HUGE deals. History will show if the current situation ranks up there.

All of this is a huge black-eye for Toyota (and CTS), no doubt. Tragic? No doubt. But the current situation is neither unprecedented, nor the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the automobile.

All auto fatalities are terrible. Something must be done to limit the 40,000 Americans that die on our roads and highways every year. Think about that number...that's how many soldiers we lost in Vietnam, and we lose that many civilians to car crashes every year.


My brother got 3 of the GM $1,000 coupons for the exploding gas tanks on the GM pickup trucks. They never did recall them just gave all the owners $1,000. They did redesign the tanks but several thousand people died from that defect.
 
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