Toyota Traded Quality for Quantity

[benjamming]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: c502cid
Total [censored] that any supplier can change factories (much less countries of origin!) without approval from the manufacturer. I do too much business with all of them and contracts specify this very clearly, along with the design specs of each part. A supplier has little or no say in making of the part, just gets to push the "run" button.

Very much true. Our company can't do anything to a part (i.e., change steel suppliers, forging suppliers, heat treaters, machining sources) without revalidation of part performance for the OEM customer. We can't change anything to the agreed-upon design and manufacturing process without our customer's blessing. This is true for ALL auto manufacturers.


I can back this up as well having worked as a process engineer for a Tier 1 auto supplier. However, companies don't always follow the rules!

 

[willix]

Toyota throttles sticking is a vary rare occurrence. You would be under the impression that every Toyota you see is about to Kill. This defect goes back 10 yrs. How many vehicles has Toyota made over the last 10 yrs, I think its safe to say millions. Divide that number by 285 crashes, or divide that Number by 19 deaths. Remember the Audi?

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Originally Posted By: willix
Toyota throttles sticking is a vary rare occurrence. You would be under the impression that every Toyota you see is about to Kill. This defect goes back 10 yrs. How many vehicles has Toyota made over the last 10 yrs, I think its safe to say millions. Divide that number by 285 crashes, or divide that Number by 19 deaths. Remember the Audi?


I think the Drive by Wire systems were introduced in 2005, so it only goes back 6 years.

 

[willix]

They are attributing these 285 crashes 19 deaths 10 years back. I guess you can't believe everything you here. This was reported on fox news 20 minutes ago.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: LTVibe
"...Toyota has identified auto parts as a place to save money and has allegedly requested that suppliers cut parts prices by 30% to 40%..."

"...the obvious question is how Toyota will maintain its quality control while slashing parts costs by a third or more. According to the Nikkei, Toyota is looking to use less-expensive materials in addition to less-expensive parts, all of which could present a challenge to the company's hard-won reputation for quality and reliability..."

This is similar to what Walmart does with its suppliers. We'll be driving Walmart cars except they won't be at the lowest prices lol.

 

[LTVibe]

Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
"...Toyota has identified auto parts as a place to save money and has allegedly requested that suppliers cut parts prices by 30% to 40%..."

"...the obvious question is how Toyota will maintain its quality control while slashing parts costs by a third or more. According to the Nikkei, Toyota is looking to use less-expensive materials in addition to less-expensive parts, all of which could present a challenge to the company's hard-won reputation for quality and reliability..."

"...the obvious question is how Toyota will maintain its quality..." Well, looks like we found out, now didn't we!

What are the parts makers supposed to do?? Keep making the same good, reliable parts even though Toyota is going to pay them 30-40% less?

That is completely unrelated to this issue...

Are you sure it's not related?

My '05 Toyota-built Pontiac Vibe has drive-by-wire electronic throttle, but the components are made by Denso, not CTS.

Why didn't Toyota use Denso components in the recalled '09-'10 Vibes, if not for the reason of cutting costs?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
That is completely unrelated to this issue, but if you want to play that game, I can play it too. They can always switch to electric engines, which only have a rotor that moves as opposed to the hundreds that gasoline engines have.

The fuel line, fuel filter and fuel pump could be replaced with a simple wire to a Digital Quantum Battery:

http://www.physorg.com/news180704455.html

According to some calculations I did with some figures I found via Google, Digital Quantum Batteries store the same amount of energy per unit mass that gasoline has after the efficiency of the internal combustion engine taken into account, so in theory, they could just replace the gasoline tank with a digital quantum battery, attach a wire to it that leads to the engine compartment where the engine was replaced by an electric engine and call it a day. The radiator and engine coolant could be removed as well. All you would need to add is a simple electric heater (e.g. a resistor) for the heating system. The lead acid battery, air intake, air filter, oil filter and oil could be removed as well. In theory, the brake rotors, brake calipers and brake pads could be replaced entirely with regenerative braking.

All of those things (electric engine, digital quantum battery, wire and a resistor) are dirt cheap compared to what Toyota puts in their cars today. In fact, since a Digital Quantum Battery is just a series of capacitors, you can charge one in less time than it would take to fill a tank of gasoline. Not to mention that since so many parts are being removed, the engine compartment could be miniaturized, which would yield additional cost savings.

Doing this should remove at least 30% of the parts used in cars by weight. Problem solved.

This is OT, but this is interesting. Could you start another thread about this if you haven't yet? I don't know enough about the technology to say this is true.

 

[willix]

Ford, GM , or Chyseler never did that. Did they? This effects 9.7 million Toyotas. These are Japanese cars, they are supposed to be cheap. Some how they gained a reputation for being hi quality. How does that happen? Who was comparing what to what? Hyundai & Kia are now the world leaders in value.

 

[brianl703]

I don't know about how Denso costs compare to CTS costs, but for oxygen sensors, the cheapest ones out there (for the money) are made by Denso. They're cheaper than NGK and Bosch by at least $20 on a 4-wire sensor.

 

[rszappa1]

Ford,GM or Chrysler never did that......... That was a good one... Got another....

 

[willix]

My Cadillac has OEM Denso parts on it and it's 15 yrs old.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Ford,GM or Chrysler never did that......... That was a good one... Got another....

Well I think they might now but they didn't until more recent times. GM may have cut cost but I think they generally tried to get the safety issues engineered out. I know someone is going to disagree but asian imports were a death trap compared to American cars until recently. Not to bash imports but I never considered those flimsy models they sold and still sell on the low-end very safe. Anyway Toyota is the one with the accelerator promblems and I think it's because they cheaped out.

 

[rszappa1]

Most of you highest rated crash test cars by the insurance institute are asian......

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Ford,GM or Chrysler never did that......... That was a good one... Got another....

Well I think they might now but they didn't until more recent times. GM may have cut cost but I think they generally tried to get the safety issues engineered out. I know someone is going to disagree but asian imports were a death trap compared to American cars until recently. Not to bash imports but I never considered those flimsy models they sold and still sell on the low-end very safe. Anyway Toyota is the one with the accelerator promblems and I think it's because they cheaped out.


While that might be true because they went with a North American supplier, it is possible that the supplier decided to make modifications to their manufacturing process to cut costs while pocketing the savings.

In another thread, a video explaining what goes wrong said that the problem could be grit getting into the part when it was produced at the factory, which I believe could be the result of a cost savings measure at the factory.

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Are you sure it's not related?

My '05 Toyota-built Pontiac Vibe has drive-by-wire electronic throttle, but the components are made by Denso, not CTS.

Why didn't Toyota use Denso components in the recalled '09-'10 Vibes, if not for the reason of cutting costs?

That policy is unrelated because it is a policy they began to implement after the affected vehicles were produced. The affected vehicles are the result of another policy that they put into effect in 2002 if you read the article.

 

[willix]

The Japanese imports have put the american cars to shame for the last 25+ yrs. Its no secret. Its Korea that has had a strong hold about 7 years. Those cars have evolved from real pieces of [censored] to very nice cars. Its true. I am American all the way. I have never set out to buy a foreign car. I was given a 15 yr old Mazda 626 w/180,000mi(1985)on it once and it was possibly the best car I ever had. I drove it til 220,000mi & gave it to my son who crashed it on his 16th birthday. It still had the original clutch. American cars have vastly improved. But too late. Heres a Toyota that won more 9 Nascar cup events in 2008 [img:center]

[/img]

 

[mechanicx]

What about all those high mileage Crown Vics and various other GM vehicles with 150K-300K miles? I don't think Japanese vehicles have been putting domestics to shame for the last 25 years. The 80-90's GM vehicles had some trouble areas here and there but they would hold up very well, a lot better than most people give them credit for. I think KIA and Hyundai is the new and next "don't buy domestic" hype.

 

[willix]

I am loyal GM, Its sad, no more Pontiac, Oldsmobile [img:center]

[/img]

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
What about all those high mileage Crown Vics


I have one of 'em..'97 Crown Vic P71, ex VA state police car, 263,200 miles. I've only put 2000 of those miles in it..I suspect that it was a cab after it was a police car.

I could run a CarFax and find out for $35, or I could spend $22 on a used oil analysis. I think I'll do the UOA after I have 3000 miles on it. It'll be more useful than a CarFax.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: PT1
I have 3 Toyota products right now but all have the Denso ETC system which is fine.


PT1, I hate to burst your bubble, but most acceleration accidents happened with the Denso pedal. There are no KNOWN accidents atributed the CTS part. Maybe they stick all right and are potentially dangerous, but are not deadly so far.
If you don't believe me go to the NHTSA webside and compare speed control incidents in both Denso equipped (japanese made) and CTS equipped (NA made) toyotas. Check your year and model too. Quite revealing.
I'm surprized general media didn't figure it out and repeat after toyota that they have the fix. Wishful thinking.