Factors that can affect warming up time

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Shannow

You stated that the oil was a coolant...I countered that with what ACTUALLY happens.- this is the 2nd time you've attributed something to me that I didn't say. What I said was, "oil acts like a coolant" and not, "oil is a coolant". It's weird because while the coolant and radiator fulfill the principle role of keeping my engine cool, the oil in my engine also picks up heat as it passes through the engine and let's it go into the atmosphere via the oil cooler. Your oil doesn't function similarly?

Oh, and it's not the "little more throttle", as the heat is related to RPM, not power output. - weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?



OK, I am typing very very very slowly now...

The majority of the heat that the oil transfers to the atmosphere is generated within the oil...not "picked up"... in fact the bearings transfer heat INTO the block to be "picked up" by the collant...

Look at the charts, and my previous posts...typing in red doesn't makeyou more understandable, or change what you said.

 

[ka9mnx]

If you understand oil shear, you understand oil is heated by rpm's. Not load.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Shannow

OK, I am typing very very very slowly now...

The majority of the heat that the oil transfers to the atmosphere is generated within the oil...not "picked up"... in fact the bearings transfer heat INTO the block to be "picked up" by the collant...

Look at the charts, and my previous posts...typing in red doesn't makeyou more understandable, or change what you said.

But I like to do it.. especially now that I know it irritates you. Your proclivity for dropping unwarranted & non-additive smart arse remarks (see example below) in your replies, especially makes me want to type in red....‚. this is something I've noticed in many many of your replies over time. Seems you're simply incapable of replying without coming off like a......

What did "DGXR" say to warrant your remark?🤔
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by DGXR
I don't think cold thick oil will generate enough friction to speed the warmup process when you consider there are EXPLOSIONS taking place in the cylinders.
If cold oil IS generating that much friction, you have much more serious issues than worrying how quickly your engine reaches full temperature.

Also, low ambient temperature is the #1 cause of slow warmup

not thinking is a serious issue these days...

 

[Overfill]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Shannow
My Caprice with the L67, I could drive the same 6 mile stretch of highway,once in D, the other in "2"...exactly the same road load,wind drag etc...the "2" made 40F more temperature.

I can buy that. But in "2" it will also be revving higher over the same stretch, and consuming a lot more fuel in the process. How do you isolate one from the other? I buy the whole, "more load = more friction = more heat", deal. But how do you know it's mostly coming from the friction, and not fuel consumption as well? They both go hand in hand.


See below...

with engine torque at 10Nm, and 1,000RPM versus 3,000RPM, the difference in oil temperature/warmup is marked.
with same enginespeed, the diffference between 10Nm and 60Nm is little.

So yes, there's more power in the 3,000RPM example, 3 times as much...but in the 60Nm case, there's 6 times as much power, and not a great deal of difference in warmup rate..

In my Caprice example, the oil temperature was 40F ABOVE the coolant temperature.

Patman's example above, was at my recommendation ages ago, and quite a few others are holding lower gears in town to get tempsup for when they hit the on ramp.

Edit...and between figures 6 and 7...
Fig 6, at 800 seconds in, the temperature is about 100C. Dimensionless power is 3,000x10 = 30,000
Fig 7, at 800 seconds in, the temperature is about 90-95C. Dimensionless power is 2,000x60= 120,000

So 4 times more power delivers less energy to the oil..



Hey Shannow, in figure 6, was this test conducted with no explosions (or (non)explosions [?]) in the cylinders of the engine? I ask to help me divorce their influence from this discussion. Just wanna say, I feel like this is a stupid question on my part because the oil temp from the thermocouple reads it capping out around 100C, and I would expect that an engine cant be spun by an external drive off the crank to raise the oil temp to those levels, but then again, hah, I'm not a lubrication engineer. I wanna know!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?


If you were driving a stick shift, you could divorce these two things from each other. For example, you could drop two gears, dramatically increasing the engine RPM while maintaining the same road speed, but load and thus throttle opening should remain roughly the same.

Conversely, you, pulling a trailer, can hold the throttle wide-open on a grade without downshifting and maintain or even lose engine RPM, despite load now being at max.

As Shannow's testing demonstrates, RPM, independent of change in load, has the biggest impact on oil temperature.

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?


If you were driving a stick shift, you could divorce these two things from each other. For example, you could drop two gears, dramatically increasing the engine RPM while maintaining the same road speed, but load and thus throttle opening should remain roughly the same.

Conversely, you, pulling a trailer, can hold the throttle wide-open on a grade without downshifting and maintain or even lose engine RPM, despite load now being at max.

As Shannow's testing demonstrates, RPM, independent of change in load, has the biggest impact on oil temperature.


Good explanation!

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by Shannow


not thinking is a serious issue these days...

The majority of the heat in the oilis heat generated by the oilitself undergoing shear...not the number of (non)explosions taking place in the cylinder...yes, the (non)explosions make the motive power, but the friction generates most of the heat...

Here's a chart of bearing temperature rise with the engine simply being cranked (zero (non)expolosions)

Here's another couple...showing that the friction due to the oilis highest when the oil iscold and thickest.

and one showing that RPM is far more effective than load for increasing oil temperature.

Nice graphs!

Interesting that in one case, just cranking by itself increases the temp from -65F to -35F.

Do you have any similar graphs showing the impact of oil viscosity on the temperature rise?
Just curious how significant the impact is.

 

[69GTX]

The only things WE can reasonably control from day to day w/o being race car engineers is ambient temp or rpms. You can choose when you go outside to start your car....or turn on a block heater. You might decide it's just too darn cold to start the car until hours later. You can adjust rpms as you desire. Other than these, you live with your other choices from OCI to OCI. No one is making continual fuel/air adjustments or other fractional changes day to day to coincide with ambient temperature....though your car's engine control computer could be doing this automatically for you. In any case, you don't control it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

More engine load (combustion explosions) will also contributed some input heat to the oil because oil is not 100% thermally isolated from very hot piston and cylinder wall surfaces that oil comes into contact with.

Engine design will determine how much combustion heat the oil will absorb. Engines with piston cooling jets will pick up more combustion heat than an engine without piston cooling jets. Engine cooling systems aren't very effective in cooling the oil, and that's why most high performance engines have a dedicated oil cooler (oil to air, or oil to coolant heat exchangers).

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
weird..in my car, whenever I give the engine gas the rpms go up...how does it work in your car?


If you were driving a stick shift, you could divorce these two things from each other. For example, you could drop two gears, dramatically increasing the engine RPM while maintaining the same road speed, but load and thus throttle opening should remain roughly the same.

Conversely, you, pulling a trailer, can hold the throttle wide-open on a grade without downshifting and maintain or even lose engine RPM, despite load now being at max.

As Shannow's testing demonstrates, RPM, independent of change in load, has the biggest impact on oil temperature.

Ok, that's great.. downshifting a manual gearbox raises rpms independent of throttle, i can't argue with that and admittedly I overlooked that ..but a) I don't have a manual tranny so that's not an option and b) how are you going to raise rpms in your manual gearbox since you're sitting in the driveway waiting for the engine to come up to temp?.. and c) haven't we strayed (courtesy of Shannow) just a wee bit from the OP's original question into the esoteric? The ORIGINAL question was, what, if anything, can be done to accelerate the warming up process... and NOT once the engines at operating temp, what things can effect oil temps. Now maybe the OP meant to include not just sitting in the driveway but also while moving right after startup. I construed the question to be the former and not the latter.... and those would be two different discussions. In the former, original question by the OP, I mused that a change in viscosity will have little to no impact on the overall time needed for the engine to get to operating temp... and i (still) stand by that statement...that it has little to no effect in a passenger vehicle.

Originally Posted by SlavaB
I've been thinking about what actually affects the warming up time of an engine and if type of oil can change it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, if you look at what the ECM does, it elevates RPM to:

A) get oil to where it needs to be as quickly as possible
B) get the oil warmed as quickly as possible
C) get the cats fired-off as quickly as possible

 

[PimTac]

Shannow offered examples to help answer the question which is not a simple one. Overkill just mentioned how the computer knows the engine is cold and adjusts everything to warm it up quickly.

The original question is being answered.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Well, if you look at what the ECM does, it elevates RPM to:

A) get oil to where it needs to be as quickly as possible
B) get the oil warmed as quickly as possible
C) get the cats fired-off as quickly as possible

But the OPs asking what HE can do to impact warm up, not what does the ECU do to manage the warm up process. Two entirely different things/discussions. But to your point, I did say in a prior post, that if one could alter the tuning you could effect the time to warm up. But is that practical for a passenger car owner? (again, we're veering away from the original question and practical solutions into the realm of the esoteric and specialty)

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by PimTac

The original question is being answered.

The original question is not what does the ECU do to manage warm up. If that's a discussion you want to have, great.. let's have it. But the original question as I understood it (maybe I misunderstood the question..if so, plz enlighten me on what I missed), is what can an individual do to accelerate warm up...not what is the ECU doing during warm up.

 

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
But the OPs asking what HE can do to impact warm up, not what does the ECU do to manage the warm up process. Two entirely different things/discussions. But to your point, I did say in a prior post, that if one could alter the tuning you could effect the time to warm up. But is that practical for a passenger car owner? (again, we're veering away from the original question and practical solutions into the realm of the esoteric and specialty)

Block heater...

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by PimTac

The original question is being answered.

The original question is not what does the ECU do to manage warm up. If that's a discussion you want to have, great.. let's have it. But the original question as I understood it (maybe I misunderstood the question..if so, plz enlighten me on what I missed), is what can an individual do to accelerate warm up...not what is the ECU doing during warm up.




That was answered on the first page. Drive the vehicle.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Well, if you look at what the ECM does, it elevates RPM to:

A) get oil to where it needs to be as quickly as possible
B) get the oil warmed as quickly as possible
C) get the cats fired-off as quickly as possible

But the OPs asking what HE can do to impact warm up, not what does the ECU do to manage the warm up process. Two entirely different things/discussions. But to your point, I did say in a prior post, that if one could alter the tuning you could effect the time to warm up. But is that practical for a passenger car owner? (again, we're veering away from the original question and practical solutions into the realm of the esoteric and specialty)


Most auto's have manual mode, so he could artificially keep engine RPM elevated via that mechanism if offered, assuming we are talking about driving. I'd say the ECM does a pretty good job of that by itself though, so this isn't something that really needs any user intervention.

 

[4WD]

Active grill shutters and electric fans on my GM 5.3L's

 

[M56959]

Please keep discussion on topic.

 

[4WD]

Not sure what is off topic but certainly personal attacks in this thread

When you RE to the OP instead of who is out of line, who knows ?