Unbelievable!

[javacontour]

Or it points out the feelings are not a good or accurate measure when they are the sole tool used to measure something.

I've found that feelings are typically selfish. Those who use them as their primary compass are focused only one themselves.

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Perhaps its Karma.

 

[TrevorS]

Even being a stoic is in fact a feeling.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Perhaps its Karma.


Or perhaps you have an agenda

Are you white? You said you aren't black, but that doesn't really answer the question.

I'm part German, should I feel guilty for the Holocaust? With nothing else to go on except that question, can you provide me with an answer?

 

[Mystic]

I remember TrevorS giving me a big lecture on diversity when I mentioned I watched FOX News. So maybe TrevorS needs to take a look at himself and evaluate his own tolerance.

I have always said that if you look at every person as an individual you cannot be a racist (or sexist for that matter). Look at everybody as an individual and you will find white people you like, and white people you dislike, black people you like, and black people you dislike, etc. This works for me.

 

[Mystic]

TrevorS also says this: 'These guys have successfully lobbied to hold the minimum wage for tipped restaurant workers at the same level for 22 years at, wait for it, $2.13 an hour.'

I believe the minimum wage is $7.25 an hour now. I don't know exactly and I would have to check. I have not worked a minimum wage job for decades. But I do know when I did work minimum wage jobs decades ago it was $1.60 an hour. Now maybe for tipped restaurant workers the minimum wage is $2.13 an hour. I have never had a job like that so I don't know. But I am pretty sure the minimum wage is now $7.25 an hour. I just might do some checking online to make sure.

 

[Mystic]

According to the information I found online the Federal Government in the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) sets a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. For tipped restaurant workers there seem to be some varying laws depending on the state but the lowest wage I could find for a tipped restaurant worker was $5.15 an hour in Wyoming.

I have not worked a minimum wage job for decades. I am assuming TrevorS that you are younger than me. But I know more about minimum wages than you? If you are getting your information from a college professor that professor needs to do some research.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I guess this pot no longer needs stirring, Mystic!

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Perhaps its Karma.


Or perhaps you have an agenda

Are you white? You said you aren't black, but that doesn't really answer the question.

I'm part German, should I feel guilty for the Holocaust? With nothing else to go on except that question, can you provide me with an answer?


I think you, and others, have missed the point I originally made, are inferring that I made a different point, and are drawing false equivalences.

But to answer your questions, I'm not white. I don't think you should feel guilty for the holocaust. I don't think anybody should feel guilty for something someone before them did. Some people do without prompting or external pressure, some people feel that they don't want their inheritors to have to put up with something negative.

I have a more nuanced view than you and others seem to believe. Because I point out one thing, in this case a bias, which itself I have acknowledged is situation dependent and can easily be reversed, doesn't mean I don't share views that you and others might more readily agree with. One truth does not negate other truths. It is, at least it should be possible, to recognize a situation that results in a negative experience and could contribute to negative outcomes, without having to say it can't be true because one feels other reasons are more important. For example, take an innocent child. Whatever happens at home, whether it is perfect or fits a stereotype, does it excuse a differential behavior from society? Or is it justified in some cases but not others? Or is it always justified?

Again, I posted the original videos because it was eye opening to me how biases work. And it made me understand the experience of that minority better. Does not negate in my mind any criticism of the same minority or feelings of reverse racism that some have.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I remember TrevorS giving me a big lecture on diversity when I mentioned I watched FOX News. So maybe TrevorS needs to take a look at himself and evaluate his own tolerance.

I have always said that if you look at every person as an individual you cannot be a racist (or sexist for that matter). Look at everybody as an individual and you will find white people you like, and white people you dislike, black people you like, and black people you dislike, etc. This works for me.


I don't believe I gave you a big lecture. I respectfully suggest you imagined that.

I do look at myself, that is an important reason for my personal growth and success. The thing is you can't stand still at looking at yourself and I'm now looking at newer things about myself. Clearly I need to improve how I get some of my points across or just don't share things I find interesting.

I agree with your second paragraph. It's a great standard you have there.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
According to the information I found online the Federal Government in the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) sets a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. For tipped restaurant workers there seem to be some varying laws depending on the state but the lowest wage I could find for a tipped restaurant worker was $5.15 an hour in Wyoming.

I have not worked a minimum wage job for decades. I am assuming TrevorS that you are younger than me. But I know more about minimum wages than you? If you are getting your information from a college professor that professor needs to do some research.


I don't know where or how you are doing your research and what college professors have to do with it but its easy to confirm the $2.13 tipped minimum wage here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States


Opponents of the current minimum wage for tipped employees point out that the tipped minimum wage has remained stagnant since 1991 despite increases in the cost of living and in the standard minimum wage over that same time.[16] The minimum wage for tipped employees represented 50% of the standard minimum wage in 1968. By 2010, it was 29% of the non-tipped minimum wage.[17]

They also contend that, while workers are required to ensure that all employees receive the minimum wage after tips, the current system makes it possible for some employers to illegally coerce employees to over-report tips or dock their pay so that their final income is below the minimum wage.[18][19] Others argue that because tips often represent 50%-90% of a waiter’s income,[20] workers’ incomes are unfairly vulnerable to fluctuations in customers’ generosity.

 

[Mystic]

TrevorS, you have no tolerance for people who have different viewpoints than you. I have seen MSNBC News. I had no choice but to watch it because a woman at work wanted to watch it and at work we always had a news station on so that we would know immediately about anything we might need to know (I worked in county government). I don't know what news stations you watch and that is your personal choice. I am more tolerant than you it seems. But I challenge you to watch FOX News for a week. Maybe you will discover there is a different viewpoint.

 

[Mystic]

I have taken the liberty of copying this statement from the source you quoted:

Quote: The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips.[4] If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any pay period, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate. As of May 2012, the average hourly wage – including tips – for a restaurant employee in the United States that received tip income was $11.82

Did you happen to notice that if wages and tips are not equal to the $7.25 Federal Minimum Wage the employer is required to compensate? Did you also happen to notice that as of May 2012 the average wage including tips for restaurant workers was $11.82? Kind of changes things a little bit doesn't it?

And where are the 'opponents' of the current minimum wage getting their information that employers are illegally coercing employees to over-report tips so that their income is below the minimum wage? Do you have any documentation for that? Oh, it may happen. But a smart employee could report that kind of stuff to the right people and maybe walk away with a hefty lawsuit. Not to mention serious state and federal charges for the employer. Where I worked there was documentation all over the wall about worker's state and federal rights concerning the federal minimum wage and various requirements that had to be met by employers. The Human Resources Representative went over all kinds of stuff when somebody was hired and we had classes on various stuff.

Now I am not saying that some employers may mistreat employees. I am sure there are many cases of abuse. But you were trying to make it appear that restaurant workers were being forced to live on an outrageously low income. But according to your own source of information restaurant workers in the United States are making an average of $11.82 an hour. Now I admit that is not a great income. But it is a lot more than $2.13 an hour, correct?

Have you ever worked a minimum wage job TrevorS? I have. I made $1.60 an hour at some of the first jobs I worked. Now that was a long time ago. A dollar would buy more. If you have ever worked a minimum wage job recently TrevorS you probably know that the current minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. And those restaurant workers you were talking about actually are making at least the Federal Minimum Wage unless certain workers really are being forced to over report tips. And they average $11.82 an hour according to you own source of information.

Kind of changes things a little bit, doesn't it?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS


I think you, and others, have missed the point I originally made, are inferring that I made a different point, and are drawing false equivalences.


I don't think we missed the point, it is that we are in disagreement with it/some of it.

Quote:
But to answer your questions, I'm not white. I don't think you should feel guilty for the holocaust. I don't think anybody should feel guilty for something someone before them did. Some people do without prompting or external pressure, some people feel that they don't want their inheritors to have to put up with something negative.


OK, so then do you see the parallels that javacontour drew between "white guilt" (based on the days of slave trading) and modern racism/profiling with respect to your point that he singled out? And do you see how the whole Holocaust/"German guilt" fits into that as well?

All people either inherit and/or forge their own slants/views/biases on the world and their immediate surroundings. Part of that can certainly be racially-motivated or influenced. But part of it can also simply be the fear of the unknown, or heck, even the fear of the known. You have a white kid that grew up with white friends and the only exposure to black people he's had is the television, do you think his views on black people are realistic? No? But does that make him racist? Probably not. It may make him ignorant, and there certainly is a lot of fear founded on ignorance of other people and it doesn't have to do with the colour of somebody's skin. We are, in most cases, apprehensive of something we don't know or understand. And when what we DO know is based on stereotypes or half-truths, well then the human reaction is predictable. But it doesn't make it racist. Because there isn't hatred or anger there or judgement being put forth that these people are inferior, simply lack of enough knowledge of the person/situation/culture to react in what a more adjusted person would call a "reasonable manner".

IMHO, that's really what the videos depict, not racism. Profiling? Sure. But that's based on stereotypes and ignorance, not "hatred of the black man". Yet the videos are titled "Racism".

Quote:
I have a more nuanced view than you and others seem to believe. Because I point out one thing, in this case a bias, which itself I have acknowledged is situation dependent and can easily be reversed, doesn't mean I don't share views that you and others might more readily agree with. One truth does not negate other truths. It is, at least it should be possible, to recognize a situation that results in a negative experience and could contribute to negative outcomes, without having to say it can't be true because one feels other reasons are more important. For example, take an innocent child. Whatever happens at home, whether it is perfect or fits a stereotype, does it excuse a differential behavior from society? Or is it justified in some cases but not others? Or is it always justified?


Just because something can be explained doesn't make it justified. A corrupt upbringing might explain a child's adult behavior. But it doesn't excuse it. We are all individuals with the ability to make our own choices. You make the wrong ones, that's on you, not your parents. IMHO.

Quote:
Again, I posted the original videos because it was eye opening to me how biases work. And it made me understand the experience of that minority better. Does not negate in my mind any criticism of the same minority or feelings of reverse racism that some have.


You need to get out more if that was eye opening, LOL! This stuff is all around you, every day. And the reverse of it is around you every day too. The Canadian government has a minority hiring quota. You are white? You need not apply, because you don't fit the hiring criteria. You could be the most qualified person on the planet but because you are part of the "white majority" you cannot get the job. I don't think that's racism, that's "white guilt". Playing out in an overly-liberal government who wants so hard to appear "neutral" that they lean the other way with their bias. I think it is disgusting. A person should stand on the merits of their ability and skill, not win or lose based on their ethnic background or skin colour. Isn't that what the whole "fight against racism" was all about? It seems we've just reversed it in many cases trying to appear to be "equal opportunity" and "diverse" to the point that hiring criteria is set around ensuring that the workplace is adequately diverse rather than aptly skilled. A bit of a disservice to all involved IMHO.

 

[Mystic]

I agree with what OVERKILL is saying. There are white people who come from poor families also. I was poor-I worked minimum wage jobs at $1.60 an hour and I worked hard in college and at the jobs I was able to get to move ahead. I was denied employment because of quotas and stuff like that.

Too many people make excuses. A person has to work hard, study hard, and go out and try to get the jobs. I worked 33 years and one month at my last job.

 

[AVB]

This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN8YQVM1GQI is the kind of response I would expect from the situations in either of the videos if it happened here.

There are a few mild curse words in the video, I don't see any in the comments.