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Best oil for Honda S2000?
- Thread starter mariok2006
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Cmon, with all of the smart people here surely someone can explain this to me.
I don't consider myself one of the "all the smart people here". But I do try to get smarter, IQ permitting. Personally, I think you may have answered many of your own questions with your own assumptions. I also think that Honda would have recommended a straight 30W if they could have gotten away with it. But they compromised and went with a 10W30/5W40 (cold weather) recommendation. The F20 and F22 engines are designed to run at high RPM's. In fact, driving below 3K RPM's lugs the engine, IMO. Optimum torque and horsepower are set at higher RPM's than your average 4 cylinder beer and grocery getter, in other words. That may have something to do with why they picked a more conservative 10W30 as a starting point for new owners.
I'm in for this discussion.. .
What would be the risk of running a M1 high mileage 10W-40 or 10w-30 on the track with this motor? You can't beat the price at Walmart right now with these; 5qt jug for $20.
For suggested oil filters, the highest flowing and best assembled ones are reccomended. So we are talking OEM Honda, HAMP and ???
I heard the Wix and K&N filters flow really well but use paper media? Maybe not a good decision on these HIGH Flow/PSI Engines???
What would be the risk of running a M1 high mileage 10W-40 or 10w-30 on the track with this motor? You can't beat the price at Walmart right now with these; 5qt jug for $20.
For suggested oil filters, the highest flowing and best assembled ones are reccomended. So we are talking OEM Honda, HAMP and ???
I heard the Wix and K&N filters flow really well but use paper media? Maybe not a good decision on these HIGH Flow/PSI Engines???
I looked into the High Mileage M1 10w30 and 10w40. Their data is side by side on this data sheet. I'm concerned with comparing how thick these oils are for oil PSI and flow properties.
Basic 5W-30 M1 data
cst@ 100degC = 11.3
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 3.09
FlashPoint = 230
M1 Extended Performance 5W-30
cst@ 100degC = 11.0
HTHS Viscosity@ 150C = 3.1
FlashPoint = 230
M1 High Mileage 10W-30
cst@ 100degC = 11.79
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 3.66
FlashPoint = 231
Basic 0W-40 M1 Data
cst@ 100degC = 14.3
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 3.6
FlashPoint = 236
M1 High Mileag 10W-40
cst@ 100degC = 14.71
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 4.06
Highest flashpoint of all at 240C
This 10W40 High Mileage stuff is REALLY thick. I wonder how much the oil pressure goes up using this oil??
It looks like the HTSC for the High Mileage 10W30 looks to be about the same as 0W40 M1 but flows better at colder temps. I think I am going to give the HM 10W30 stuff a try. At $20 a change, running it at the Race Track new and changing it immediately after is pretty ---- cheap.
FYI I don't run a S2000 but I do have a K20a2 RSX-S 8400rpm 2liter that specs out 5W30 M1 and 10W30 M1 as well. The Base model RSX, K20a3 lower compression motor actually specs out 5W20!
Basic 5W-30 M1 data
cst@ 100degC = 11.3
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 3.09
FlashPoint = 230
M1 Extended Performance 5W-30
cst@ 100degC = 11.0
HTHS Viscosity@ 150C = 3.1
FlashPoint = 230
M1 High Mileage 10W-30
cst@ 100degC = 11.79
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 3.66
FlashPoint = 231
Basic 0W-40 M1 Data
cst@ 100degC = 14.3
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 3.6
FlashPoint = 236
M1 High Mileag 10W-40
cst@ 100degC = 14.71
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C = 4.06
Highest flashpoint of all at 240C
This 10W40 High Mileage stuff is REALLY thick. I wonder how much the oil pressure goes up using this oil??
It looks like the HTSC for the High Mileage 10W30 looks to be about the same as 0W40 M1 but flows better at colder temps. I think I am going to give the HM 10W30 stuff a try. At $20 a change, running it at the Race Track new and changing it immediately after is pretty ---- cheap.
FYI I don't run a S2000 but I do have a K20a2 RSX-S 8400rpm 2liter that specs out 5W30 M1 and 10W30 M1 as well. The Base model RSX, K20a3 lower compression motor actually specs out 5W20!
I'm not smart either, but it has to be shearing related.
I imagine a 0/5W-20/30 synthetic oil would have no issues...
I think you're reading way too much into the data-sheet tea leaves...
"Really thick?" Naw. The cold pour is at -38F/-39C which is lower than pour points for most conventional 5W-30s...
I run the 10W-40M1HM in my Saturn with 143K on it. Recently, it sat in an airport long-term park for over a week. I finally found it when I returned, and started it up - and the engine snapped-too like a German Army infantry company on parade...
No hesitiation. No misfire or funny noises at start up.
The Mobil1 HM 10W-30 looks to be one of their best offerings these days. I'm assuming it has to be mostly PAO-based...
Not to dis or anything, but you have a Saturn and it's no track car. I'm worrying about pressure and flow, cavitation in oil pump or in bearings. Having an oil that is too thick or too thin might not work optimally.
As I stated before, the M1 10W40 HM looks to be really thick compared to the M1 5w30 oil that is spec'd to be OEM standard for the S2000 and RSX-S motors. Using an oil that is substancialy thicker might be a BAD thing, especially on a NEWER Engine with less miles. The HM products are thicker for multiple reason but one main one is that it will help make up for lost clearances and help cushion bearings and cylinder wall to piston rings.
Then don't use it.
We're not really talking about your car or my Saturn. We're talking about the S2000 in question that doesn't spec 10W-40 (or M1 5W-30). So I'd never use it in that application.
I'm just saying that the M1 10W-40 isn't really all that thick. Haven't older 'track cars' used 15W-50/20W-50 weighted synthetics for years?
I seriously doubt you'll find many engine failures resulting from use of a synthetic 10W-40 over a synthetic 10W-30. I doubt you'd notice a significant difference in oil pressure...
Incidentally, I only use it because my car, like most Saturns, burns a little oil and I changed it over the summer. Otherwise I'd have used the 10W-30..
We're not really talking about your car or my Saturn. We're talking about the S2000 in question that doesn't spec 10W-40 (or M1 5W-30). So I'd never use it in that application.
I'm just saying that the M1 10W-40 isn't really all that thick. Haven't older 'track cars' used 15W-50/20W-50 weighted synthetics for years?
I seriously doubt you'll find many engine failures resulting from use of a synthetic 10W-40 over a synthetic 10W-30. I doubt you'd notice a significant difference in oil pressure...
Incidentally, I only use it because my car, like most Saturns, burns a little oil and I changed it over the summer. Otherwise I'd have used the 10W-30..
I would recommend staying with the Honda 15400-PCX-004 oil filter. It has a singular application and purpose, the S2000. It is made by Filtec now (Toyo Roki was the previous supplier).
A few things to keep in mind here, there will always be lots of oil recommendations on BITOG but only a few people here have ever owned (or will own) the S2000. While I like and respect this site it has become more and more riddled with fan boys and "couch tribologists". Keep this in mind when viewing some of the oil recommendations given here.
INDYMAC has posted some very informative UOAs on his S2000, he's also a knowledgeable owner of the vehicle. I too own an S2000 (2003 AP1 w/21k miles). My current fill is PP 5w30. Unlike many other AP1s my car doesn't consume a noticeable amount of oil (I never have to add any) and it recently put down 207.8HP to the rear wheels, it is 100% stock. Maybe I got a strong one from the factory....who knows. I went on a local "canon ball run" of sorts yesterday covering 180 miles of backroads, the entire time the car never dipped under 6000RPM. The oil level is still at the full mark and the car never missed a beat, I was tailing (and passing) an E46 M3 whos owner swore up and down that I must have done some sort of modification to my S2000 in order to keep up. I'm not saying that PP made all this possible, but it certainly is up to the task of keeping the engine running well even under extended stress (as are most synthetic oils).
I do not entirely agree with Honda's recommendation of 10w30 or 5w40. However, keep in mind Honda also specs that any SJ or better oil can be used, clearly an outdated spec for motor oil. I think the S2000 oil debate is partly because Honda has failed to update their oil recommendation based on newer formulations that are available on the market. Because of this, I think it is OK to run an oil that isn't specified in the manual. If you've lurked on S2ki for any period of time you've also seen the thread where someone ran M1 5w20 in an S2000 and produced a normal UOA. I think the evidence is there showing that the S2000 will respond just fine to thinner oils. There are also UOAs from SpitfireS, another S2000 owner who posts on S2ki.com, he runs a very thin 0w30 oil, almost as thin as some of the "thick" 5w20 oils available. His UOAs also look just fine, in my mind this rules out any need to run a 10w30 from a performance perspective. I think Honda continues to recommend 10w30 SJ because of cost, availability throughout the world, and pure laziness.
Last but certainly not least, if I knew 2 years ago what I know now, I would be more focused on the differential fluid than worrying about engine oil. The S2000 isn't hard on oil, it has average fuel dilution and the oiling system is very advanced for the car. As a result, it won't stress the oil nearly as bad as people like to believe. Instead, the weak link on the S2000 is the differential, if anything I'd splurge and spend the extra $$$ on a good diff lube, run whatever oil you can find on sale in the engine and don't worry about it. I run PP because I found a bunch during the BOGO at AAP, otherwise I'd probably be running some other synthetic that happened to be on sale this week.
All this advice is worthless without a UOA on YOUR S2000 (whenever you do decide to get one), try a few oils and get them analyzed after 5000 miles of use. Figure out what works best for your application, I think you might be surprised to find that more expensive oils don't always translate into better wear numbers, especially when concerning a street driven car.
INDYMAC has posted some very informative UOAs on his S2000, he's also a knowledgeable owner of the vehicle. I too own an S2000 (2003 AP1 w/21k miles). My current fill is PP 5w30. Unlike many other AP1s my car doesn't consume a noticeable amount of oil (I never have to add any) and it recently put down 207.8HP to the rear wheels, it is 100% stock. Maybe I got a strong one from the factory....who knows. I went on a local "canon ball run" of sorts yesterday covering 180 miles of backroads, the entire time the car never dipped under 6000RPM. The oil level is still at the full mark and the car never missed a beat, I was tailing (and passing) an E46 M3 whos owner swore up and down that I must have done some sort of modification to my S2000 in order to keep up. I'm not saying that PP made all this possible, but it certainly is up to the task of keeping the engine running well even under extended stress (as are most synthetic oils).
I do not entirely agree with Honda's recommendation of 10w30 or 5w40. However, keep in mind Honda also specs that any SJ or better oil can be used, clearly an outdated spec for motor oil. I think the S2000 oil debate is partly because Honda has failed to update their oil recommendation based on newer formulations that are available on the market. Because of this, I think it is OK to run an oil that isn't specified in the manual. If you've lurked on S2ki for any period of time you've also seen the thread where someone ran M1 5w20 in an S2000 and produced a normal UOA. I think the evidence is there showing that the S2000 will respond just fine to thinner oils. There are also UOAs from SpitfireS, another S2000 owner who posts on S2ki.com, he runs a very thin 0w30 oil, almost as thin as some of the "thick" 5w20 oils available. His UOAs also look just fine, in my mind this rules out any need to run a 10w30 from a performance perspective. I think Honda continues to recommend 10w30 SJ because of cost, availability throughout the world, and pure laziness.
Last but certainly not least, if I knew 2 years ago what I know now, I would be more focused on the differential fluid than worrying about engine oil. The S2000 isn't hard on oil, it has average fuel dilution and the oiling system is very advanced for the car. As a result, it won't stress the oil nearly as bad as people like to believe. Instead, the weak link on the S2000 is the differential, if anything I'd splurge and spend the extra $$$ on a good diff lube, run whatever oil you can find on sale in the engine and don't worry about it. I run PP because I found a bunch during the BOGO at AAP, otherwise I'd probably be running some other synthetic that happened to be on sale this week.
All this advice is worthless without a UOA on YOUR S2000 (whenever you do decide to get one), try a few oils and get them analyzed after 5000 miles of use. Figure out what works best for your application, I think you might be surprised to find that more expensive oils don't always translate into better wear numbers, especially when concerning a street driven car.
The thinner oils will free up some more power typically.
Strange that you did not use any oil. Most all s2000 AP1 Road Racing cars will spu out plenty of oil b/c of hard cornering thru their crank case ventilation b/t the head and the Intake Manifold. I reccomend a catch can for all hard driven s2000s, especially ones that see the track.
I also find that very strange that you were keeping up with a E46 M3. I am even with them but for sure can beat an AP1 s2000 down the straights. With Fuel and drive I'm in a 95 Civic @ 2480lbs with a 2004 acura RSX-S dyno tuned 207whp 156trq K20a2 motor.
I'm looking forward to doing some UOA consistantly and seeing my results. I'm going with Mobil 1 HM 10W30 for the track and DD. 5W30 for the winter time.
Strange that you did not use any oil. Most all s2000 AP1 Road Racing cars will spu out plenty of oil b/c of hard cornering thru their crank case ventilation b/t the head and the Intake Manifold. I reccomend a catch can for all hard driven s2000s, especially ones that see the track.
I also find that very strange that you were keeping up with a E46 M3. I am even with them but for sure can beat an AP1 s2000 down the straights. With Fuel and drive I'm in a 95 Civic @ 2480lbs with a 2004 acura RSX-S dyno tuned 207whp 156trq K20a2 motor.
I'm looking forward to doing some UOA consistantly and seeing my results. I'm going with Mobil 1 HM 10W30 for the track and DD. 5W30 for the winter time.
Honda Europe recommends to use ACEA A3/B3 oils only. As I could notice Mobil1 is the most popular with Honda dealers, though many of them also use Aral and Castrol (in fact they are parent companies). Grades: 0W-40, 0W-30 and 5W-40.
i would say 5W-40 for such high rev engine
i have a type-R engine and i use Amsoil 10W-40 as well, and use Motul 300V 15W-50 for track days, that would give maximum protection to engines like ours
i have a type-R engine and i use Amsoil 10W-40 as well, and use Motul 300V 15W-50 for track days, that would give maximum protection to engines like ours
My current fill is Castrol Syntec 0W30. I believe it meets those specs, but I'm using it now because it is SL rated rather than SM. I hesitate to fully recommend it until I have a UOA after the second fill. My impressions after 1500 miles are very favorable though.
That's what will go in mine when the GC stash runs out.
Quote:
A few things to keep in mind here, there will always be lots of oil recommendations on BITOG but only a few people here have ever owned (or will own) the S2000. While I like and respect this site it has become more and more riddled with fan boys and "couch tribologists". Keep this in mind when viewing some of the oil recommendations given here.
INDYMAC has posted some very informative UOAs on his S2000, he's also a knowledgeable owner of the vehicle. I too own an S2000 (2003 AP1 w/21k miles). My current fill is PP 5w30. Unlike many other AP1s my car doesn't consume a noticeable amount of oil (I never have to add any) and it recently put down 207.8HP to the rear wheels, it is 100% stock. Maybe I got a strong one from the factory....who knows. I went on a local "canon ball run" of sorts yesterday covering 180 miles of backroads, the entire time the car never dipped under 6000RPM. The oil level is still at the full mark and the car never missed a beat, I was tailing (and passing) an E46 M3 whos owner swore up and down that I must have done some sort of modification to my S2000 in order to keep up. I'm not saying that PP made all this possible, but it certainly is up to the task of keeping the engine running well even under extended stress (as are most synthetic oils).
I do not entirely agree with Honda's recommendation of 10w30 or 5w40. However, keep in mind Honda also specs that any SJ or better oil can be used, clearly an outdated spec for motor oil. I think the S2000 oil debate is partly because Honda has failed to update their oil recommendation based on newer formulations that are available on the market. Because of this, I think it is OK to run an oil that isn't specified in the manual. If you've lurked on S2ki for any period of time you've also seen the thread where someone ran M1 5w20 in an S2000 and produced a normal UOA. I think the evidence is there showing that the S2000 will respond just fine to thinner oils. There are also UOAs from SpitfireS, another S2000 owner who posts on S2ki.com, he runs a very thin 0w30 oil, almost as thin as some of the "thick" 5w20 oils available. His UOAs also look just fine, in my mind this rules out any need to run a 10w30 from a performance perspective. I think Honda continues to recommend 10w30 SJ because of cost, availability throughout the world, and pure laziness.
Last but certainly not least, if I knew 2 years ago what I know now, I would be more focused on the differential fluid than worrying about engine oil. The S2000 isn't hard on oil, it has average fuel dilution and the oiling system is very advanced for the car. As a result, it won't stress the oil nearly as bad as people like to believe. Instead, the weak link on the S2000 is the differential, if anything I'd splurge and spend the extra $$$ on a good diff lube, run whatever oil you can find on sale in the engine and don't worry about it. I run PP because I found a bunch during the BOGO at AAP, otherwise I'd probably be running some other synthetic that happened to be on sale this week.
All this advice is worthless without a UOA on YOUR S2000 (whenever you do decide to get one), try a few oils and get them analyzed after 5000 miles of use. Figure out what works best for your application, I think you might be surprised to find that more expensive oils don't always translate into better wear numbers, especially when concerning a street driven car.
You were saying something to me? LOL This site is also riddled with reading comprehension issues and irony-impairment...
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Maybe using a Group III 5W-30 "unleashed the horses under the hood?"
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