Using 5w-20 in place of 5w-30

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From another post.....

http://www.lnengineering.com/sae/

SAE Technical Paper Series. Design Considerations in Formulating Gasoline Engine Lubricants for Improving Engine Fuel Economy and Wear Resistance Part 1 Base Oils and Additives. 2007-01-4143

19. Adequate performance for a lubricant in the VIB sequence is most important to most OEMs as this is a good indicator of fuel economy, after which sequences to evaluate the wear performance are then considered.
20. These new lubricants must balance the fuel economy improvement FEI% and good wear resistance.



SAE Technical Paper Series. Engine Oil and Bearing Wear. 810330.

1. There is a dependence on oil viscosity on bearing wear.

7. Increase in oil viscosity showed a linear decrease in bearing wear demerits with data collected precise enough to determine a zero wear intercept of 13.7 cP at 150C. FIGURE 2.
8. Bearing wear is directly proportional to the HTHS viscosity of oils.
 
When was the last time you saw Pb in the range above noise level without some ingress of dirt that bypassed the air horn? It would be news to me out of the vast ...uncounted in number of UOA we've seen over the time that I've been here. Tall Paul had an instance of a torn and unknown PCV vent hose and traveled through a construction site for months and he had 450ppm of Pb. His engine (I believe he still owns it) is still running fine.

Now I know you're a thicker head type oil guy ..but when is the last time (or the first for that matter) you've seen elevated bearing wear in any engine ..sheared ...fuel laden..what have you. Bearing wear is the least of our worries if you ask me.

If the visc is providing enough flow/pressure to keep the bearings apart ..what difference does viscosity make?

Check that: I think I saw one Toy truck that showed a blip with dedicated towing for most of its life. OTOH, I saw a NEON that towed way beyond it's normal capacity (does it even have one?) and showed no issues on 5w-20. So, YMMV, but even a poor showing isn't going to grenade the engine (probably over your lifetime).


Visc sure sent this engine into high bearing wear!
 
"SAE Technical Paper Series. Engine Oil and Bearing Wear. 810330.

1. There is a dependence on oil viscosity on bearing wear.

7. Increase in oil viscosity showed a linear decrease in bearing wear demerits with data collected precise enough to determine a zero wear intercept of 13.7 cP at 150C. FIGURE 2.
8. Bearing wear is directly proportional to the HTHS viscosity of oils."

This paper is 27 years old. Viscosity has been shown (today) to have nothing to do with wear in fully formulated oils.

aehaas
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Tall Paul had an instance of a torn and unknown PCV vent hose and traveled through a construction site for months and he had 450ppm of Pb. His engine (I believe he still owns it) is still running fine.
Yep. Was running 10w40. Lead was 476. Fixed the leak. Then changed the oil. Next OCI of 3000 miles, lead was 124. After that, next 3000 mile OCI, lead was only 30.
 
You may need straight 50 to bring that Pb down a bit
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What about warranty requirements? Told the dealer I would do my own oil changes on my new 08 Taurus and he said that was fine but keep the oil purchase receipts and a log when I changed the oil in case I needed powertrain warranty work.

That being said the owners manual list 5W20 as the only oil to use for all temp ranges. If I ran a 5W30 could I be denied my powertrain warranty if I needed it? If so, isn't it stupid to use anything other than 5W20 while in the warranty period?
 
It's stupid not to let the dealer do all work during the warranty period for documentation.
 
Originally Posted By: FZ1
It's stupid not to let the dealer do all work during the warranty period for documentation.


No it's not. It's stupid to throw money away. I can keep all of my receipts and do a synthetic oil change on my vehicle for less than 20 dollars. It would be stupid to let the dealer do the same oil change for 80 dollars. My receipts are documentation enough. Plus, you can document online when work is done directly on the company websites like Ford.
 
Quote:
If I ran a 5W30 could I be denied my powertrain warranty if I needed it? If so, isn't it stupid to use anything other than 5W20 while in the warranty period?


Not likely. If you did have engine trouble (highly unlikely) you would insist on a UOA to determine that the oil was the cause of the failure (again, highly unlikely). They're going to be anal of any claim of that magnitude - period. Any failure, other than a catastrophic one, will be evidenced by other indicators prior to failure. There, the main focus will be that you changed the oil and that it met the current (or spec'd) requirements (SM, GF-4, etc.). The service manager can throw out a "Hail Mary" accusation or whatever, but it's a game of semantics if the same engine is sold from Canada to Texas spec'ing the same oil. They're all weights at one time over the span of usage/temps ..etc..etc.


..but this begs the question (it may be answered back there somewhere) ..why not just use 5w-20 ...if you're worried?

If you're not using 5w-30 for costs sake, then it turns into a trap of "competing fears". You fear 5w-20 because of its lower viscosity. You fear using 5w-30 and it's higher viscosity due to warranty issues. It's sorta like penguins who fear the Orca ..yet can't resist the urge to jump in the water anyway ..and a polar bear is approaching from the ice pack. Either action presents its own perceived risks ..in the imagination anyway (we aren't penguins).
 
"This paper is 27 years old. Viscosity has been shown (today) to have nothing to do with wear in fully formulated oils."

Whether three, two or one decade old, or even a year old, one finds that viscosity is typically a major factor regarding wear. That's the way oil and bearings work, otherwise we'd see applications begging for better fuel economy, like over the road diesels, using 5w20 instead of the 15w40 that they've used for quite awhile. We'd also see 5w20 having been used in places where fuel has been expensive for a long time, like in Europe, but instead heavier oils have been the norm. In racing one would see nothing but 5w oils being used for better performance, but instead one sees examples like Shell using a heavier oil in F1 Ferraris for practice in order to get the engines to last longer. 5w20 will work fine for almost everyone in the US, speeds aren't that high and drain intervals aren't that long.


http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/922342
Engine Oil Viscosity and Bearing Wear: Field Test Results
Document Number: 922342
Date Published: October 1992
Abstract:
Two programs were conducted to study the relationships between engine oil rheology and crankshaft bearing wear. A chassis dynamometer test of four oils in four cars was used to explore and define the key variables affecting bearing wear. There results were used to design a field test of nine oils in 45 taxicabs in New York City. The test oils (SAE 0W-20 to 20W-20) were formulated to measure the effects of viscosity, viscosity index improver, and detergent inhibitor package. Bearing wear tended to be either low and unremarkable or very high, particularly in the thrust bearings. Oil performance was best expressed as the frequency of excessive wear, rather than by quantitative wear measurement. There were many instances of very high wear in cabs operated with the lowest viscosity oils but none in cabs with higher viscosity oils. Non-Newtonian oils appeared to provide slightly more protection than Newtonian oils of the same HTHS viscosity, and a higher quality adpack also appeared to provide benefits. However, these factors were secondary to the viscosity of the oil. HTHS viscosity was a better predictor of beairng wear performance than oil film thickness.



https://shop.sae.org/technical/papers/980702
Properties of Engine Bearings Lubricated With Low Hths Viscosity Oil
Document Number: 980702
Date Published: February 1998
Abstract:
Properties of engine bearings were investigated with different bearing materials and different HTHS viscosity oils by means of both an engine test and a rig test.
The rig test well simulated the bearing wear which occurred in the engine test. Lead-bronze bearings with lead-tin-indium overlay gave the least amount of wear in operating under high-speed and heavy-load conditions even with low HTHS viscosi Aluminum bearings without overlay gave good wear resistance in the case of no seizure occurrence. The wear amount of bearings were well correlated with HTHS viscosity, not with kinematic viscosity.



SAE Technical Paper Series. Design Considerations in Formulating Gasoline Engine Lubricants for Improving Engine Fuel Economy and Wear Resistance Part 1 Base Oils and Additives. 2007-01-4143

19. Adequate performance for a lubricant in the VIB sequence is most important to most OEMs as this is a good indicator of fuel economy, after which sequences to evaluate the wear performance are then considered.
20. These new lubricants must balance the fuel economy improvement FEI% and good wear resistance.
37. But base oil does have an effect on hydrodynamic friction which viscosity and film thickness which is good for wear, bad for FEI.



http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/trainingcenter/082106.html
The oil wedge formed in a hydrodynamic bearing is a function of speed (RPM), load (cylinder pressure), and oil viscosity (at operating temperature). Under fluid film conditions, an increase in viscosity or speed increases the oil film thickness and the coefficient of friction, while an increase in load decreases them. The separate consideration of these effects presents a complex picture that is simplified by combining viscosity Z, speed N, and unit load P, into a single dimensionless factor called the ZN/P factor.
 
So? Suppose your ZN/P factor is 300% of needed with a 0w-10 and your manufacturer recommends 5w-30 anyway
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So? Suppose your ZN/P factor is 300% of needed with a 0w-10 and your manufacturer recommends 5w-30 anyway
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Why should we suppose that? We can never get hydrodynamic lubrication all the time even with the recommended viscosities.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So? Suppose your ZN/P factor is 300% of needed with a 0w-10 and your manufacturer recommends 5w-30 anyway
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Why should we suppose that?


Because I asked you to.
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Quote:
We can never get hydrodynamic lubrication all the time even with the recommended viscosities.


...and so viscosity has no bearing when we don't have hydrodynamic lubrication? So, going higher in visc alters this? I see.
 
Whew, Some good serious debate. 5w-20 going in on the next change. If it blows I will blame Gary. Just joking.
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Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RedOak
Whew, Some good serious debate. 5w-20 going in on the next change. If it blows I will blame Gary. Just joking.
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What do I know
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I'm just running 0w-20-Lite with no bearing wear
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I keep thinking that I've dialed that wrong portal address again. Maybe in this reality I'm Chancy Gardener.
 
"I'm just running 0w-20-Lite with no bearing wear"

There is a fifth dimension, beyond that which is known to man. It is realm as vast as space, and as timeless, as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow; between science and superstition; and it lies between the pit of man's fear, and the summit of his knowledge. These are dimensions of the imagination... it is an area which we call... The no wear zone.
 
Well, let's qualify that statement. No "apparent" bearing wear.

Again, when you're in boundary lubrication, just what does a 50 or 60 or 70 weight do for you? Are their AW adds more potent? You're then left with a rhetorical "Duh, well it's going to be a lot harder to get to the boundary lubrication with a 50 as opposed to a 10 range

..and then we're back to "if you're at 300% of the required conditions for a 10 ...what more does a 30 do for you?

You all keep looking for the most marginal of conditions ..with some assumption that they're always going to occur routinely. You're also totally ingorant to the notion that some engine ..some where ...can easily run on a 10 weight without undue bearing wear and breaching of the hydrodynamic lubrication.

That is, just because you state that the lighter viscosity oil is easier to breach than a heavier weight ...just what mandates that it will ever see condition (other than initial startup) that it ever sees enough stress to do so?? Just what theorem, axiom, postulate (and any other word that I can pull out of my behind) dictates that it HAS to be??

I haven't seen you produce this ..at least in a digestible format.

or ..

do you mean to tell me that you cannot configure an engine that will not damage itself on lighter oils? No flow would be enough? No resultant pressure would be enough? No over engineering of the oil system or bearing size could possibly be managed to prevent elevated wear??

I don't buy it ..and under those liberties .. I don't think you will either.

Hence .."what if your Xys/pqh is 300% with a 0w-10 and they spec a 30 weight anyway"
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..and I don't even know what the eff I'm talking about ..sheesh.
 
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