The truth about American-made cars
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Nice article. I used to be the "global this, global that..." kind of guy, but after seeing what is being done at my own work in the name of globalization as well as other industries, it simply disgusts me.
Reading some great posts on BITOG over the years also helped in convincing me about the false premise of globalization.
Now, I'm not all for blindly buying domestic because it's the right thing to do, no, not at all. The product itself always comes first to me. If I like the product and it meets my criteria, then domestic will get my vote, if not I will look for something made else ware that suits my needs.
Product competition is just as important to me as ever, but I no longer buy into the global economy scam and try to buy locally, because that's where the majority of money stays.
This I think is a very sensible view.
Nice article. I used to be the "global this, global that..." kind of guy, but after seeing what is being done at my own work in the name of globalization as well as other industries, it simply disgusts me.
Reading some great posts on BITOG over the years also helped in convincing me about the false premise of globalization.
Now, I'm not all for blindly buying domestic because it's the right thing to do, no, not at all. The product itself always comes first to me. If I like the product and it meets my criteria, then domestic will get my vote, if not I will look for something made else ware that suits my needs.
Product competition is just as important to me as ever, but I no longer buy into the global economy scam and try to buy locally, because that's where the majority of money stays.
This I think is a very sensible view.
I am not sure I follow the logic of this argument.
I currently own an Acura TL. According to Mark Perry's Blog spot it contains 75% domestic content, the same as a Corvette and a Malibu. It is built in Ohio by American workers. Middle and upper level management of American Honda are Americans (I am assuming, for the most part). All of these people are paying state and federal taxes thus supporting our country. American Honda pays state and federal corporate taxes. Also good.
So if 75% of my car is domestic content and American workers are gainfully employed, how is anybody suffering?
By the way, I switched to non-American designed cars after many bad experiences with GM and Ford products. The switch started in the early 80's after ownership of a Buick Skylark that leaked every known fluid and was in the shop more than in my driveway. Prior to that ALL my cars had been American. Each had suffered multiple failures and were costly to own. The one exception was my very first car, a 1963 Plymouth Valiant with a 170 cu slant 6 engine and torqeflite transmission. Given to me by my grandmother. 165K trouble free miles.
Cars I have had since then:
BMW 318i Great car 196K when I gave it to my nephew. No problems other than normal maintenance.
Two Mercedes Benz C class. Worst piece of junk. A bit better than the Skylark, but not by much.
Two Volvo V70 wagons. One a bit [censored] with rapid brake usage (6K) and oil usage. Second one excellent after Ford took over.
So ended my infatuation with European designed cars.
Remainder Honda or Acura. Remarkably all built in America and all trouble free.
Each time I have purchased a new car I have looked, and test driven, Fords, GMs and just not liked them. Either the way they rode or the (to me) cheap looking interior.
I currently own an Acura TL. According to Mark Perry's Blog spot it contains 75% domestic content, the same as a Corvette and a Malibu. It is built in Ohio by American workers. Middle and upper level management of American Honda are Americans (I am assuming, for the most part). All of these people are paying state and federal taxes thus supporting our country. American Honda pays state and federal corporate taxes. Also good.
So if 75% of my car is domestic content and American workers are gainfully employed, how is anybody suffering?
By the way, I switched to non-American designed cars after many bad experiences with GM and Ford products. The switch started in the early 80's after ownership of a Buick Skylark that leaked every known fluid and was in the shop more than in my driveway. Prior to that ALL my cars had been American. Each had suffered multiple failures and were costly to own. The one exception was my very first car, a 1963 Plymouth Valiant with a 170 cu slant 6 engine and torqeflite transmission. Given to me by my grandmother. 165K trouble free miles.
Cars I have had since then:
BMW 318i Great car 196K when I gave it to my nephew. No problems other than normal maintenance.
Two Mercedes Benz C class. Worst piece of junk. A bit better than the Skylark, but not by much.
Two Volvo V70 wagons. One a bit [censored] with rapid brake usage (6K) and oil usage. Second one excellent after Ford took over.
So ended my infatuation with European designed cars.
Remainder Honda or Acura. Remarkably all built in America and all trouble free.
Each time I have purchased a new car I have looked, and test driven, Fords, GMs and just not liked them. Either the way they rode or the (to me) cheap looking interior.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Not a single import in our stable, both fleet and personal. I am not totally anti import, but I am totally in favor of supporting my American workers as much as possible.
The quality "gap" ain't what it used to be, the American mfgrs have made huge strides. each year brings better and better cars to the market.
Chrysler builds hemi engines in Mexico.
And their new transmissions are made under ZF license in Indiana with German and French parts, or made by ZF in South Carolina or Saarbrucken, Germany. Just like how GM will buy ZF, Denso and Bosch stuff for Cadillacs and bring in trannies from their Strasbourg, France tranny plant.
Ford also buys/sources from France, Germany and soon Spain. My neighbor's Explorer is basically European powered - with a Cologne V6 made in Germany and a French 5R55N tranny.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Not a single import in our stable, both fleet and personal. I am not totally anti import, but I am totally in favor of supporting my American workers as much as possible.
The quality "gap" ain't what it used to be, the American mfgrs have made huge strides. each year brings better and better cars to the market.
Chrysler builds hemi engines in Mexico.
And their new transmissions are made under ZF license in Indiana with German and French parts, or made by ZF in South Carolina or Saarbrucken, Germany. Just like how GM will buy ZF, Denso and Bosch stuff for Cadillacs and bring in trannies from their Strasbourg, France tranny plant.
Ford also buys/sources from France, Germany and soon Spain. My neighbor's Explorer is basically European powered - with a Cologne V6 made in Germany and a French 5R55N tranny.
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I purchased a union-built, made in Ohio Detroit 3 car brand-new since it happened to be the best choice for me at the $20,000 mark. The fact that it happened to be faster, quieter, better-handling, and more fuel-efficient than any of its competition, ie a better driver's car, swayed me to purchase it over a "foreign-make" car.
Detroit is putting out some fantastic cars these days. Even if they're tweaked "global" designs.
Detroit is putting out some fantastic cars these days. Even if they're tweaked "global" designs.
Kestas
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I don't see how sommeone can accurately determine "domestic" or "foreign" content in a vehicle. Some simply look for where a component is assembled and sold from. There's no digging deeper to see who machines the part... forges... casts... where the steel or material came from... who sews it together... where the machinery is made to produce the parts. It really gets too complicated to wrap your head around.
One company makes a product that has "made in Brazil" stamped on it, because that's where it was machined. Yet is was forged in Korea, from Japanese steel. So, which country gets dibs on it's origin? You're kidding yourself if you think this level of detail is taken into account for all parts that are condidered for content. Many parts labeled "made in the USA" have a similar pedigree.
One company makes a product that has "made in Brazil" stamped on it, because that's where it was machined. Yet is was forged in Korea, from Japanese steel. So, which country gets dibs on it's origin? You're kidding yourself if you think this level of detail is taken into account for all parts that are condidered for content. Many parts labeled "made in the USA" have a similar pedigree.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: surfstar
And that sums it up aptly.
And that sums it up aptly.
We bought our third Ohio built Accord in late autumn.
We retired the '97 and still run the '99.
We've had seven Hondas, three of which were Ohio builds.
I'm happy to buy something good that provides employment to the residents of my own state.
Contrary to what some have posted, it isn't so much that Japanese brand durability and reliability have declined as it is that American brands have improved and largely closed the gap.
WRT national content, as many have posted, it isn't calculable for anyone not in the industry.
The supply chain is simply too complicated to apply the test of who touched a piece last.
We retired the '97 and still run the '99.
We've had seven Hondas, three of which were Ohio builds.
I'm happy to buy something good that provides employment to the residents of my own state.
Contrary to what some have posted, it isn't so much that Japanese brand durability and reliability have declined as it is that American brands have improved and largely closed the gap.
WRT national content, as many have posted, it isn't calculable for anyone not in the industry.
The supply chain is simply too complicated to apply the test of who touched a piece last.
dont forget we ALL are bias!!
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I don't see how sommeone can accurately determine "domestic" or "foreign" content in a vehicle. Some simply look for where a component is assembled and sold from. There's no digging deeper to see who machines the part... forges... casts... where the steel or material came from... who sews it together... where the machinery is made to produce the parts... even who dug the ore out of the ground! It really gets too complicated to wrap your head around.
One company makes a product that has "made in Brazil" stamped on it, because that's where it was machined. Yet is was forged in Korea, from Japanese steel. So, which country gets dibs on it's origin? You're kidding yourself if you think this level of detail is taken into account for all parts that are condidered for content. Many parts labeled "made in the USA" have a similar pedigree.
Exactly. "75% domestic parts content" is not always the same and not all that meaningful in itself. A Japanese make with a Japanese transplant supplier is not necesarily the equivalent of a Ford or GM supplier. I want to know where the money is going. It sure isn't going to a ~$10/hr contigent supplier worker. With the foreign transplants, Americans are mostly overworked,lowly paid assemblers. Americans are not very involved in R&D and management or ownership. It's all not much more than a dog and pony show.
I bet with most of the foreign transplant even with the "domestic" content, most of the money is still going to Japan and Japanese owned suppliers. If you are the brand owner, then you are in position to reap the most economic reward. Even still with all the globilzation, I know an American brand car is going to the benefit of Americans more almost regardless of parts content.
I don't see how sommeone can accurately determine "domestic" or "foreign" content in a vehicle. Some simply look for where a component is assembled and sold from. There's no digging deeper to see who machines the part... forges... casts... where the steel or material came from... who sews it together... where the machinery is made to produce the parts... even who dug the ore out of the ground! It really gets too complicated to wrap your head around.
One company makes a product that has "made in Brazil" stamped on it, because that's where it was machined. Yet is was forged in Korea, from Japanese steel. So, which country gets dibs on it's origin? You're kidding yourself if you think this level of detail is taken into account for all parts that are condidered for content. Many parts labeled "made in the USA" have a similar pedigree.
Exactly. "75% domestic parts content" is not always the same and not all that meaningful in itself. A Japanese make with a Japanese transplant supplier is not necesarily the equivalent of a Ford or GM supplier. I want to know where the money is going. It sure isn't going to a ~$10/hr contigent supplier worker. With the foreign transplants, Americans are mostly overworked,lowly paid assemblers. Americans are not very involved in R&D and management or ownership. It's all not much more than a dog and pony show.
I bet with most of the foreign transplant even with the "domestic" content, most of the money is still going to Japan and Japanese owned suppliers. If you are the brand owner, then you are in position to reap the most economic reward. Even still with all the globilzation, I know an American brand car is going to the benefit of Americans more almost regardless of parts content.
Several have cited the source of the steel used in making the cars.
Why would Honda, Hyundai, and Mercedes Benz locate factories in Alabama if they were not going to take advantage of the readily availiable steel? Birmingham is a steel city, the "Pittsburg of the South"
Look on a map. Marysville is not that far from Pittsburg.
The only "foreign" plant that confounds me is Toyota in San Antonio. It's pretty far from the steel centers and San Antonio is as land locked as Arlington (where GM builds the Tahoe) Possibly NUMMI which was far away from steel and had to pay workers higher California wages but that's a non-issue now.
Why would Honda, Hyundai, and Mercedes Benz locate factories in Alabama if they were not going to take advantage of the readily availiable steel? Birmingham is a steel city, the "Pittsburg of the South"
Look on a map. Marysville is not that far from Pittsburg.
The only "foreign" plant that confounds me is Toyota in San Antonio. It's pretty far from the steel centers and San Antonio is as land locked as Arlington (where GM builds the Tahoe) Possibly NUMMI which was far away from steel and had to pay workers higher California wages but that's a non-issue now.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
We bought our third Ohio built Accord in late autumn.
We retired the '97 and still run the '99.
We've had seven Hondas, three of which were Ohio builds.
I'm happy to buy something good that provides employment to the residents of my own state.
Contrary to what some have posted, it isn't so much that Japanese brand durability and reliability have declined as it is that American brands have improved and largely closed the gap.
WRT national content, as many have posted, it isn't calculable for anyone not in the industry.
The supply chain is simply too complicated to apply the test of who touched a piece last.
Agree with you on supporting local.
One of the reasons I bought a Civic is because the place I worked made parts for Honda, and the Civics are manufactured in Alliston, Ontario. About 2 hours from home. Buying this car employs friends of mine, and friends and family of friends. Period. Combined with the fact you have a decent product you really can't go wrong.
We bought our third Ohio built Accord in late autumn.
We retired the '97 and still run the '99.
We've had seven Hondas, three of which were Ohio builds.
I'm happy to buy something good that provides employment to the residents of my own state.
Contrary to what some have posted, it isn't so much that Japanese brand durability and reliability have declined as it is that American brands have improved and largely closed the gap.
WRT national content, as many have posted, it isn't calculable for anyone not in the industry.
The supply chain is simply too complicated to apply the test of who touched a piece last.
Agree with you on supporting local.
One of the reasons I bought a Civic is because the place I worked made parts for Honda, and the Civics are manufactured in Alliston, Ontario. About 2 hours from home. Buying this car employs friends of mine, and friends and family of friends. Period. Combined with the fact you have a decent product you really can't go wrong.
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
Said Mike Manley, CEO of Jeep, of their plans to resume production in China: "For us to continue the growth of the Jeep brand and therefore be successful because of that, you need to produce locally for the local market." Source: USA Today Every company operates to make money. It doesn't matter whether it's an assembler like Jeep or Toyota; it doesn't matter whether it's a supplier like Johnson Controls or Gentex. Every company will do what it believes it needs to do to remain competitive. That includes assembling cars in global factories using global parts and using global R&D. And that includes going to the local market to build cars, whether that's going to China to build cars for them or coming to America to build cars for us.
This conversation/debate comes up so often because this kind of stuff is extremely difficult to quantify. There are numerous "studies" done on this topic and none of them reach the same conclusion. Anyone arguing it either way has evidence to support their viewpoint. Do what makes you sleep well at night and understand that others are doing the same.
Said Mike Manley, CEO of Jeep, of their plans to resume production in China: "For us to continue the growth of the Jeep brand and therefore be successful because of that, you need to produce locally for the local market." Source: USA Today Every company operates to make money. It doesn't matter whether it's an assembler like Jeep or Toyota; it doesn't matter whether it's a supplier like Johnson Controls or Gentex. Every company will do what it believes it needs to do to remain competitive. That includes assembling cars in global factories using global parts and using global R&D. And that includes going to the local market to build cars, whether that's going to China to build cars for them or coming to America to build cars for us.
This conversation/debate comes up so often because this kind of stuff is extremely difficult to quantify. There are numerous "studies" done on this topic and none of them reach the same conclusion. Anyone arguing it either way has evidence to support their viewpoint. Do what makes you sleep well at night and understand that others are doing the same.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
If you asked the UAW I'm sure they'd say that it would be better to produce those vehicles here in the US and then put them on a boat.
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
If you asked the UAW I'm sure they'd say that it would be better to produce those vehicles here in the US and then put them on a boat.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
If you asked the UAW I'm sure they'd say that it would be better to produce those vehicles here in the US and then put them on a boat.
That's right. And then we'd want the Chinese to buy our foreign-made goods, because they're good products. They're American-built Jeeps afterall. They're GOOD products.
As much as we would or will want the Chinese to buy our American-made Jeeps, we certainly can't see the value in buying Japanese- or Korean-made cars that were floated to the Port of Los Angeles. Shoot, we can't even come to grips with a Honda made in Ohio.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
If you asked the UAW I'm sure they'd say that it would be better to produce those vehicles here in the US and then put them on a boat.
That's right. And then we'd want the Chinese to buy our foreign-made goods, because they're good products. They're American-built Jeeps afterall. They're GOOD products.
As much as we would or will want the Chinese to buy our American-made Jeeps, we certainly can't see the value in buying Japanese- or Korean-made cars that were floated to the Port of Los Angeles. Shoot, we can't even come to grips with a Honda made in Ohio.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
If you asked the UAW I'm sure they'd say that it would be better to produce those vehicles here in the US and then put them on a boat.
That's right. And then we'd want the Chinese to buy our foreign-made goods, because they're good products. They're American-built Jeeps afterall. They're GOOD products.
As much as we would or will want the Chinese to buy our American-made Jeeps, we certainly can't see the value in buying Japanese- or Korean-made cars that were floated to the Port of Los Angeles. Shoot, we can't even come to grips with a Honda made in Ohio.
What a fun double standard.
I think I'll stick to buying the best product available for the money and not worry about where it's built.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think it's humorous how the "foreign transplants" are only doing business here to undercut "domestic" automakers, regarded by some on here as a dirty business tactic to increase market share. Yet when "domestic" automakers go to other countries to build cars for those local markets, it's a good business decision to keep the company competitive.
If you asked the UAW I'm sure they'd say that it would be better to produce those vehicles here in the US and then put them on a boat.
That's right. And then we'd want the Chinese to buy our foreign-made goods, because they're good products. They're American-built Jeeps afterall. They're GOOD products.
As much as we would or will want the Chinese to buy our American-made Jeeps, we certainly can't see the value in buying Japanese- or Korean-made cars that were floated to the Port of Los Angeles. Shoot, we can't even come to grips with a Honda made in Ohio.
What a fun double standard.
I think I'll stick to buying the best product available for the money and not worry about where it's built.
I buy what I like. But have found that UAW made products are really inferior. You can tell in the fit and finish and many of the drive line products have serious early flaws and failures. My thoughts are if the workers just did their jobs they wouldn't have to have a union to threaten their employer every time they make mistakes. So I really have no reason to support that system as it simply costs too much. The whole political assumption that if you don't buy some union guy's inferior product makes you less of a patriotic citizen is really just propaganda.
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I think there's a reputation that Chinese manufacturers have for cutting corners to meet quotas and low prices, resulting in poor quality, or at least inconsistent quality...
...I've experienced this at indie repair shops who try Chinese-made off-label branded parts until they fail in less than a year and have to be replaced with OEM parts...typically Japanese-made parts...
...but Japanese OEM brands now make parts in other countries, so getting OEM may be the issue rather than country of origin.
...I've experienced this at indie repair shops who try Chinese-made off-label branded parts until they fail in less than a year and have to be replaced with OEM parts...typically Japanese-made parts...
...but Japanese OEM brands now make parts in other countries, so getting OEM may be the issue rather than country of origin.
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