Shotgun or Rifle for HD?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
How did 20 ga slugs feel? Are they about the same as 12 ga 00 buck? Lighter still? Worse? (felt recoil)


Really about the same as the 20 gauge buckshot. Nothing you'd go WOW what a difference. Different ammo brands could be more or less though. Lot less than the 12 gauge buckshot.

Assuming good technique you can go out and shoot the 20 and mostly enjoy it, the 12 is like punishment. Not manly enough I guess.


For some perspective and context...

20-gauge, 5/8 ounce slug is .62 caliber; energy is equivalent to two .44 MAG rounds hitting an individual simultaneously in the same spot.
 
Driven pheasant or not, the rule of 96 applies.

A light weight gun needs an appropriate load and velocity to be acceptable to a shooter. Find the weight gun that feels right, then determine the load and velocity that works.

Then there's fit. If a long gun doesn't fit, it will kick like a mule, ESP for women. Stock diminsions are generally made for the male of the species.

Speaking of aiming vs pointing, when you have a scattergun that fits, it much more of a point and slap instinctive type of shooting. Tactical types won't teach such instincts, but if the gun fits, there's no real sighting and aiming before 'squeezing' the trigger.

Rifles and carbines are not guns,

I can barely shoot a rifle to any level of proficiency, but I'd be [censored] to live with a gun that doesn't fit. Never force a generic gun on a new shooter and expect results or satisfaction of the shooter, a bit of recoil is entirely acceptable if the bird goes down or the clay turns to dust. Start from there and you can build a great enthusiasm for shooting,

Parameters of stock fit are lop, toe out/in, toe angle and comb. Women and and men are simply not built the same. The main reason many women are turned off from shooting is not necessarily recoil, but comfort (yes it's different) and results. Put a fitting gun in most folks hands and let them bust clays and you got a shooter for life. Put a gun that doesn't fit and makes a task hard which leads to poor results and you have an activity of non-choice with out incentive.

Not saying there are not women who can't be dead shot rifle shooters, but the shear pleasure of instinctive shooting with a fine gun is one of the great pleasures of life independent of your sex.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
In 1970 I was working as a paramedic.


Wait...what? This is by far the most interesting thing to come out of this thread; that'd make you one of the first to ever exist.

Wedworth-Townsend wasn't signed until '70. Heck, the first MICP class wasn't until late '69.

Can you please share some details with us (department, etc.)?


Is this a similar thing as saying Jesse Ventura wasn't a SEAL because they were called frogmen back when he was one.

People drove around in ambulances and administered first aid back in 1970 whatever term you want to call them.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
In 1970 I was working as a paramedic.


Wait...what? This is by far the most interesting thing to come out of this thread; that'd make you one of the first to ever exist.

Wedworth-Townsend wasn't signed until '70. Heck, the first MICP class wasn't until late '69.

Can you please share some details with us (department, etc.)?


I was and IDC, an independent duty corpsman (look it up) in the Navy and became a SARC (look it up) and served in Vietnam with the Marines.

I was involved in the work to establish a training program for paramedics that involved search and rescue and did not actually attain the official title until a bit later. I was also an instructor for the then new EMT program, too. All that was a long time ago.

The term "first responder" was not used then like it is today. I worked within the system to get the paramedics as part of the fire departments, an idea that was not accepted universally. This was all part time work because I was going through college to become an engineer.

Hospitals and other organizations were often not interested in hiring Vietnam vets for medical positions that saw combat as "medics". This attitude caused a lot of ex-corpsman with training and experience that could have never been attained in civilian life to go elsewhere for work. Or they were offered jobs described as "bed pan chasers" by another corpsman friend of mine. In the minds of many protesters and others we were criminals that should be punished for our crimes against humanity and should be spat upon whenever we seen in public.

Does this answer your question? Many of us "criminals" went in other directions.
 
05LGTLtd , everything you say is undoubtedly true but there's only so much fitting to be done with a $400 HD shotgun. LOP and a pad for comb are about it right? Clay sports are probably a good idea to get comfortable with the gun if it's available locally and the OP is interested.
 
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Is this a similar thing


Your analogy is absurd. Of course, you equate certified Paramedic to someone that "drove around in ambulances and administered first aid", so I'm not exactly surprised by the ludicrous nature of that post.

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Does this answer your question?


Clear as mud.
wink.gif


In what capacity were you serving when you were "working as a paramedic"? In other words, who were you working for and what were your responsibilities on the scene?
 
Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Having both 12 and 20 ga guns, one for you and one for your wife interjects a potential hazard. It allows a scenario where you accidentally load a twenty into a twelve, and then bad things can happen.


This exact thing happened on Thanksgiving at my former brother-in-law's place out in the sticks. We shot clays from a spring and string pigeon thrower, pretty rickety device had to keep a foot on the aft end of it but it threw them pretty good. Anyhow, my nephew-in-law had brought both a 12 and a 20ga. His 870 experienced a feeding jam that was tough to clear. Turns out his sister had inadvertently stuffed a 20ga shell in the tube with the 12's.

My late dad was a shotgun guy, big time. Shot trap and skeet competitively, hunted anything with feathers. Reloaded his own, rarely shooting factory stuff. His favorite for HD ammo were shells he loaded with #4 buck. I still have some of them. Grew up on 12ga's, but ironically I'm more of a pistol guy in adulthood. To a fault I suppose, given my hard headedness about carbines for HD over in the .44 Special thread
grin2.gif


All I have shotgun wise is an old parkerized Smith & Wesson model 3000.
 
Practice is more important that the specifics of what you're using. Practice with what you might be using, at ranges* you might use it at.

I used to teach handgun and shotgun in a previous job. Long guns are much easier to get hits with faster than handguns, given equal time for practice. That either shotguns or rifle have more power also is the frosting.

Personally, I prefer a .223 rifle loaded with thin jacketed JHPs. Those penetrate less than either pistol or shotgun #4 buckshot. Having 30 rounds without reloading is nice too. Recoil is minimal and easily handled by pretty much anyone bigger than a preteen girl.

BSW

*Given the size and layout of most houses, 10 yards is going to be a long shot. Shooting accurately and quickly at short range is a skill that requires development too, as is being comfortable with sight offset and its affect at shorted ranges.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Get the Taurus Judge. .45lc, .410 slugs, buckshot etc.
laugh.gif



Some friends of ours have a Taurus/Rossi Circuit Judge, a carbine revolver chambered in .45LC/.410. I never shot it, but feel in love with it the minute I picked it up. Looks like a riot of a good time to shoot.
 
Overkill, home invasions by multiple people have increased in Oklahoma, but I can't speak for other states. No invaders were wearing body armor. Maybe if it were a professional crew robbing a rich person's home. Yes, body armor has been worn in a few US bank robberies. Mass shooters wearing body armor? Bad reporting. Most, if not all, of them wore cheap tactical vests with pockets.
 
I believe the shotgun, whether it be 12 or 20g is the best answer. Unless you hit your intended target, nothing matters. Something with a wide spray pattern works better then one small projectile. If one is afraid of over penetration use some sort of lead bird shot. If you are close to your target most of the shot will make its way there and may be effective enough.

The second main thing is ease of use. Popping a mag in a pistol or small rifle is quick and easy to do, with some practice one can do it effectively in the dark or under stress situations. Shotguns are great, big rounds and easy to load. Cycling a pump in a stress situation is easy. Go for a decent run, get sweaty, tired and breathing heavy. Then practice loading, unloading, cycling the action and actual shooting. See what works best. Time yourself as well.
 
At a typical home defense range of 5 - 7 yards, just how wide do you think that shotgun "wide spray pattern" actually is?

Seriously... How wide?

You've predicated your argument on this pattern, so...just how wide is it?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Astro14
At a typical home defense range of 5 - 7 yards, just how wide do you think that shotgun "wide spray pattern" actually is?

Seriously... How wide?

You've predicated your argument on this pattern, so...just how wide is it?


Out of a 28" Modified choke barrel, not as big as your fist with a Trap load. I've checked it.
 
For home defense you'd want an 18" barrel with cylinder choke (ie, zero choke) to give the largest close in pattern possible.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Astro14
At a typical home defense range of 5 - 7 yards, just how wide do you think that shotgun "wide spray pattern" actually is?

Seriously... How wide?

You've predicated your argument on this pattern, so...just how wide is it?


Out of a 28" Modified choke barrel, not as big as your fist with a Trap load. I've checked it.


Exactly.

I.E. The shotgun has to be aimed as precisely as the rifle. Invalidating the "wide spray" pattern argument....which is founded in myth....
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
For home defense you'd want an 18" barrel with cylinder choke (ie, zero choke) to give the largest close in pattern possible.

Here's what you get out of such a barrel with 00 buck at 3 and 7 yards:


020105moss500.jpg


Ed
 
Originally Posted By: BrianF
I believe the shotgun, whether it be 12 or 20g is the best answer. Unless you hit your intended target, nothing matters. Something with a wide spray pattern works better then one small projectile.


Home defense scenarios are going to be under 12 feet for most engagements. Many engagements will be within 3-5 feet. There is no meaningful spread at 12 feet and less, and certainly not a wide spray pattern.


Originally Posted By: BrianF
If one is afraid of over penetration use some sort of lead bird shot.


Bird shot is for tiny little birds. Not for defense, if you want to live another day.

Originally Posted By: BrianF
The second main thing is ease of use. Shotguns are great, big rounds and easy to load. Cycling a pump in a stress situation is easy.


Most trainers will advise that the pump shotgun is the hardest home defense gun to master. Its takes a lot more skill, training, and practice to master a pump shotgun that it does a pistol or carbine. Most people can become "OK" with a pump gun with a limited amount of instruction, but if they have a malfunction, they might as well have a club in their hand as it will take an untrained person way too long to clear, if they can clear it at all. Many folks short stroke a pump shotgun in stressful scenarios, which jams up the gun.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

W
PCC vs Shotgun for home defense
4 5 6
Replies
101
Views
9K
football
John Galt
Browning BPS shotgun initial cleaning recommendations and walnut care advice.
Replies
14
Views
1K
John Galt
K
goin' old school...duty sized steel .38 spl wheelie!
Replies
5
Views
595
kmrinpa
T
115 grn vs 124grn for plinking?
Replies
16
Views
912
dubber09
billt460
New CZ 612 Target / Trap
Replies
5
Views
4K
billt460
Back
Top