Shotgun or Rifle for HD?

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RedOakRanch - you might be in a very low, voilent crime area but you have to keep it as such and this is the perfect case of "it will never happen to me/my neighborhood/home for owning and shooting it semi-annually.

This is my own researched and recommended list:

Gun - Revolver (Six-shooter) Smith & Wesson 586 (4")
Gun - Concealed Carry FN Five-Seven
Gun - Compact Carry Steyr S40-A1
Gun - Shot Gun Mossberg 590-A1
Gun - Carbine FN15 MOE SLG
Gun - Personal Defense Weapon FN PS90
Gun - Rifle Bolt-action Winchester 70 Alaskan (.300)


Now if you go with a Clint Eastwood "Dirty Harry" S&W revolver.
Smith & Wesson Model 29 is a large N-Frame revolver chambered in .44 Remington Magnum. Introduced in 1955, it won great fame as 'The Most Powerful Handgun in the World' in the 1971 Clint Eastwood film Dirty Harry.
He said they hurt, since he used and shot it daily in the movie for many weeks I wouldn't get one but would get the 586. The Model 586 uses S & W's L (medium) revolver frame, with a K-Frame sized grip mated to a larger diameter cylinder.

For example I have a Kimber 1911 SIS pro and it's great for HD /everyday concealed carry due to its weight and fire power, but for me I leave it at home and went the lighter everyday compact carry route of Steyr S40-A1 with a Viridian C5 green laser.

http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-c...phatchfinal.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Leo99

If multiple people are coming in your house uninvited, with body armor and firearms and a tactical plan to do you harm at 3am, you're in a heap of trouble.


I've seen this mentioned twice now. Does this actually happen? Are normal US civilians having their homes invaded by trained criminals with entry plans and body armour? And I mean folks that aren't in the mob or something along those lines.

I ask because I've certainly never heard of it happening up here so I'm surprised to read the topic touch on it twice now.


No, it's extremely unlikely to happen but people spend a lot of time planning or worrying about it. That's my point. You're only one person or maybe 2 or 3 with your wife and kids and you're no match for a trained team coming at you. If people are willing to engage in a firefight with you, your plans are out the door. You're not going to live or die based on your weapon of choice.
 
Originally Posted By: RedOakRanch
Like I said you can pick the penetration on a shotgun much more than a rifle. #8 bird shot will not go through 3 walls 00 buck will.


Another option is a 20 ga youth pump, as suggested earlier. I've considered putting the youth stock on our 500, which would make it easier to shoulder, but it's still a 12 ga. A 20 ga pump would probably be the easiest for us to transition to, and would probably also be more comfortable to train with as well.

I'd have to look more at different shot options. I don't think bird shot is generally recommended as a defensive round, but I also realize that there's no free lunch -- there doesn't exist a round that'll selectively slice a bad guy up, and also fall dead at the first bit of drywall it encounters.

Guns are a real weakness of mine: there are too many fun guns out there, and I'd like to own way more than I can afford to own!

(I wish that Stevens/Savage 320 wasn't made in China: it gets great reviews, is priced right, and it seems like an easy choice for a 20 ga. I'm just not sure that I can cozy up to the idea of a Chinese shotgun.)
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Leo99
The data I've seen says the AR15 is better than the shotgun for HD but again, it's not worth stressing about and I concur with RedOakRanch's post above, just be comfortable with what your weapon of choice is.


I need to continue to read up on .223 ammunition and the potential for going through walls with it. I've always been told that "the shotgun is the best for indoors because it won't go through walls." That statement seems to be just as inaccurate as the one that says, "you don't have to aim with a shotgun, just pull the trigger."

In other words, I guess my eyes are just recently opening to the fact that, no, shot will absolutely penetrate walls; sometimes two or three of them. And I guess from that perspective, if shot doesn't offer a safety advantage in terms of penetrating more walls than I'd like, and if another choice is, in fact, more suited to that, then that's something I'd like to explore.


From what I remember, it has to do with the yaw on the 223 bullet. Think of the 223 bullet as a slightly wobbly thrown football. It's not a real tight perfect spiral; there is a little wobble to it. When it hits something, it will tumble and give up its energy easily.
 
RE: the sound of a pump being charged, WHY would you have an unloaded HOME DEFENSE gun????? So on top of being awakened to bad sounds in your home you have to remember to charge the gun? AND you're 1 round down? And you can just as easily short stroke your first round under stress. No thanks.

We were just shooting HD 12s and 20s yesterday and as noted already the 12 with high brass anything is just stupid to shoot, and especially with a short woman friendly stock. Hard to not hit your nose on recoil. Low brass and low recoil rounds much less punishing. The 20 is noticeably lower recoil but still makes a good pattern at 25 yards and less. If I were buying a shotgun just for HD it would be a youth 20 gauge, or specifically the Mossy 500 Bantam Tactical. Short stock and reduced recoil and good sights, everybody's happy.

You might want to get some reduced recoil HD ammo for your 12 and a short stock. Both of you can shoot a short shotgun. ARs are fine weapons but it's another platform with more buttons and levers and will require new training for you and your wife. But you should have one just because.

I've never fired a shotgun or rifle in a room, it has to be really uncomfortable.
 
If I owned a dedicated HD shotgun, it would be a short barreled pump. I wouldn't have to rack it, but simply push the safety to fire.
I like #4 shot.
 
Don't worry about me I have all guns in every category listed above. I keep a 357 very close and all the rest nearby. I realize that mini guns mounted around the house with fingerprint I'd would be ideal but I'm not going to recommend it to the OP.
 
Keep a 357 in the bedroom as well as a 12ga short barrel pump, prefer buckshot
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Leo99
The data I've seen says the AR15 is better than the shotgun for HD but again, it's not worth stressing about and I concur with RedOakRanch's post above, just be comfortable with what your weapon of choice is.


I need to continue to read up on .223 ammunition and the potential for going through walls with it. I've always been told that "the shotgun is the best for indoors because it won't go through walls." That statement seems to be just as inaccurate as the one that says, "you don't have to aim with a shotgun, just pull the trigger."

In other words, I guess my eyes are just recently opening to the fact that, no, shot will absolutely penetrate walls; sometimes two or three of them. And I guess from that perspective, if shot doesn't offer a safety advantage in terms of penetrating more walls than I'd like, and if another choice is, in fact, more suited to that, then that's something I'd like to explore.


Not that it's a great data point but I've shot steel plate with both .223 and buckshot. One most certainly goes straight through it the other just splatters on it.

Same thing if you are shooting trees. Buckshot will go so far into a tree and stop. .223 will go further or straight through depending on the size of the tree. .308 will go through several small trees.
 
My solution is a pistol caliber carbine. I waver between a Marlin 1894C (357 magnum) and a Hi-Point in 40 S&W (spare me the unknowledgeable rants, please. Mine works FLAWLESSLY!).
PCC's have many advantages. An expanding pistol bullet will be "contained" better than a rifle round. Pistol rounds will be less noisy because all of the powder will be burned in the barrel. The longer tube will give up to 25% more energy to a pistol round. For a 357 magnum, this means up to 1,000 lb./ft of energy (compare to a 44 mag.),in a 40S&W, energy goes up to 700 lb/ft (into 10mm territory). Pistol ammo, even premium defensive rounds are less than $1/ea. and you can practice with cheap range ammo and get realistic performance that will closely duplicate the expensive stuff.
Have you ever heard an AR lit off next to you? I use both ear plugs and ear muffs at my indoor range. Even though I repaired artillery as a soldier; I can't stand how loud they are. IMO, an AR is a POOR choice.
Make no mistake, in order to stop a threat as quickly as possible; any projectile that will work will be able to penetrate wall board and plywood. With a PCC, it will be easier to put a round into Center of Mass, and to keep putting them there as many as necessary without massive recoil to disturb point of aim. Cheap to feed, fun to shoot for ALL members of a family, not very expensive to acquire, holds both enough rounds and resale value (except HP).
 
It sounds like you and your wife need some range time with these different options. Many different choices will work well but the one that works best for you is worth a bit of searching and hands on trials to discover. Some training might be useful before making a choice.

In 1970 I was working as a paramedic. We went to a call where there were shots fired and arrived with the police. A young woman with her 2 toddlers faced off a home invader armed with a knife.

Her husband was off on a WestPac cruise (usually 6 months deployed at sea) in the Navy but had trained her to use a 12ga pump shotgun and also what to do in case of something like this.

The home invader caught her in the hallway with her children behind her. She brought her extensive training and practice into play. After being threatened with the knife she fired 5 shots at about 25 feet and hit him with every round. She had previously backed her kids into her bedroom and after shooting she backed in and hid behind furniture with her kids, reloaded and then called for help.

Later a police officer asked her why she shot him 5 times meaning why so many. She answered that she only shot him 5 times because that's all the rounds her shotgun held. She said she was terrified and wanted to make sure he was stopped to protect her children.

People only saw the fact that she used a 12ga shotgun but the key to her success was her training and practice which got lost in the after shooting publicity.

Some final notes. Every pellet of every round of the double 00 buckshot hit the target. The pattern spread at 25 feet was less than 6 inches. There was no hallway cleaning effect evidenced.

She was not charged with a crime and this happened in California. This was a classic case of self defense even though the black community of the day claimed the woman had no right to use a shotgun against a knife. They claimed he was a nice guy that would never hurt anyone, was always friendly and had just recently fallen in with the wrong crowd. They claimed that this was not like him and was all a mistake.

The truth. He was 6' tall, weighted 200 pounds and had a long and continuous arrest record for violent crimes including assault with a deadly weapon, attempted rape, robbery and purse snatching. This was the part that never made the news.

I believe that this family is alive and well because their home defense was treated as something that required much more than just the "correct gun".
 
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
The 20 is noticeably lower recoil but still makes a good pattern at 25 yards and less. If I were buying a shotgun just for HD it would be a youth 20 gauge, or specifically the Mossy 500 Bantam Tactical. Short stock and reduced recoil and good sights, everybody's happy.


Is this the one?

http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-persuadercruisercompact-8-shot-54300/

Something like that would certainly be familiar to us, having a similar 8-shot pump already.
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I believe that this family is alive and well because their home defense was treated as something that required much more than just the "correct gun".


Thanks for sharing that story, and I appreciate and agree with your point.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

Is this the one?

http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-persuadercruisercompact-8-shot-54300/

Something like that would certainly be familiar to us, having a similar 8-shot pump already.


Yep, I shot that yesterday, it's a friend's wife's HD shotgun. We shot slugs, buck, #4 out of it. Nice sights, all it needs is a light. A good gun shop should sell you one for around $400 + taxes etc. He was sitting at a bench supporting his elbows having no trouble hitting a target at 100 yards with slugs. Great fun watching the slugs fly out!
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
In 1970 I was working as a paramedic.


Wait...what? This is by far the most interesting thing to come out of this thread; that'd make you one of the first to ever exist.

Wedworth-Townsend wasn't signed until '70. Heck, the first MICP class wasn't until late '69.

Can you please share some details with us (department, etc.)?
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
How did 20 ga slugs feel? Are they about the same as 12 ga 00 buck? Lighter still? Worse? (felt recoil)


Really about the same as the 20 gauge buckshot. Nothing you'd go WOW what a difference. Different ammo brands could be more or less though. Lot less than the 12 gauge buckshot.

Assuming good technique you can go out and shoot the 20 and mostly enjoy it, the 12 is like punishment. Not manly enough I guess.
 
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Assuming good technique you can go out and shoot the 20 and mostly enjoy it, the 12 is like punishment. Not manly enough I guess.


That's the bottom line for us, I think. We can make the 12 ga work, but we don't use it as often as we should because we simply don't enjoy taking it out and using it. I think we'd use a lighter recoiling gun more and, by extension, we'd be more proficient with the platform...whatever that ends up being for us.

Leaning towards a 20 ga pump at the moment. The extra money spent on a base model out-of-the-box auto loader or AR could be spent on a good light and/or a defensive shotgun class for both of us...which would probably be a ton of fun, besides the valuable experience gained.
 
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