Shotgun or Rifle for HD?

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Hokiefyd

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The .44 Special thread got me pondering on tools for castle defense situations. Not offensive, "honey I'm gonna go clear the house!" type stuff, but "get into the safe room and defend yourself if you have to" type stuff. I have a 12 ga, and have been considering a 20 ga because my wife is not comfortable with the 12 ga. I've seen some YouTube videos of penetration demonstrations with shotguns and, despite the common argument that they'll penetrate less than a pistol, I see a lot of things I don't like in some of those videos (like buck going through two or three walls).

The .44 Special thread got me considering something I've never considered before: a rifle for castle defense. Not my .30-WCF 1894, but an AR platform with the right ammunition. I'm an AR novice -- I don't own one and I've never shot one. I have used an AK-47 once, and it was a blast (literally). But with .223 ammo that never became scarce, and the completely modular nature of ARs that allow you to build whatever the heck you want, they have some appeal to me.

What are your thoughts on an AR vs. a shotgun? My shotgun is a 20" Mossberg 12 ga with a 7-rd magazine, so it's probably about as "good as it gets" in terms of capacity and energy. But, again, it's a demon to shoot sometimes and I'm thinking 30 rounds of the right .223 in a more controllable gun might be good.

(We have absolutely no other use for the shotgun, by the way. Although I love guns and shooting, I'm not a hunter, and I just don't go out and shoot clay. So the ONLY purpose that Mossberg serves for us is castle defense. If there's a better tool for that, I'd trade the shotgun out and start to move in that direction.)
 
Always a good reason to buy a new gun!

An AR in 223 with lighter "varmint" rounds is a great choice if you want to limit penetration. More fun than an AK to shoot, IMO, and little recoil. A 16" bbl AR with collapsible stock loaded with Hornady 55gr. TAP would be a good start. Don't forget a sling.

You should have both....probably all 3 since you can't shoot the mossy one-handed...The AR can't be tucked in your belt to carry things so a handgun is a logical choice.
 
AR/equivalent all day long. Easy to shoot. 0 yard to way out there range. A lot more ammo capacity. Easier reloads if you did need to reload. Penetrates soft armor which is everywhere. More precision if you needed to make a long shot. Ammo much more compact and lighter weight.

The main advantage to shotguns is the low entry price for a good pump. That advantage quickly disappears if you want a tactical style auto.
 
I think the best home defense weapon is the one that everyone in the house can handle comfortably at 3am with a groggy head.

The mossberg is an excellent choice. Pair it with some rounds designed for home defense and a grip with a built-in flashlight and I'd say you're all set.
 
If you're concerned with penetration through walls you need to stick with a shotgun and adjust the shot size to match your desired performance. My father in law was a cop in LA and he can testify that the sound of a pump shotgun stopped most crimes. The rifle would be best for defence outside the house.
 
Having both 12 and 20 ga guns, one for you and one for your wife interjects a potential hazard. It allows a scenario where you accidentally load a twenty into a twelve, and then bad things can happen.

Don't get me wrong, for simplicity, cost and effectiveness, I'm all for a set of Mossberg 500s and back up side arms. But just keep the bore sizes the same. 20ga bantam is a great choice for many women. 12ga rounds that are closer to 20ga recoil are probably available for defense as well. It's not hard to download a shotgun shell for reduced recoil. A twenty gauge load out of a 12 ga gun is as effective as a 20ga.

Although cool looking tactical black guns are all the sales ATM, I'd get a wood stocked or camo version. If you are ever in court, you will look more like sportsman who were defending thier lives. Much better than looking like a pair of tacticool commando wannabes who have been planning an ambush in front of a jury and judge.
 
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Originally Posted By: RedOakRanch
If you're concerned with penetration through walls you need to stick with a shotgun and adjust the shot size to match your desired performance. My father in law was a cop in LA and he can testify that the sound of a pump shotgun stopped most crimes. The rifle would be best for defence outside the house.
If the sound of racking a pump runs off criminals, charging a rifle will do the same thing. I prefer to count on the loud noises and metal thingies coming out of the barrel. Announcing where I am and that I have a gun are not in the plans. When a home invader should figure out you're armed is when the bullets start hitting them.
 
I do have some concerns about the shotgun. First, it's a pump/slide action, and I'm not 100% confident that I (or my wife) wouldn't short-cycle it in a panic situation. I train as much as I can and, like many, don't train as much as I'd like. Any doubt that I'd be able to operate something like that in the heat of the moment is doubt I don't want to have. The 12 ga size is, I believe, probably too big for us. So if I stayed with a shotgun, I'd probably be interested in a 20 ga auto loader.

But, the price of a 20 ga auto loader puts me in the same neighborhood as an AR-15, which is why I wonder aloud -- if I'm going to be into it for 600 bucks, should I be considering an AR-15 also/instead? From some of the things I'm seeing, a group of shot will penetrate more than a slender rifle round will. I thought, "huh?" But the concept is, shot balls (much like pistol rounds) are balls that don't really deform or change their aerodynamic profile after contact with something. An elongated rifle round, however, will start to tumble and turn and lose a ton of energy as it does that. If it strikes a layer or two of drywall sideways, it's lost most of its energy and becomes far less lethal. That's the concept. I certainly don't have my own ballistic demonstrations to prove that...that's why I ask the group.
 
Originally Posted By: LotI
You should have both....probably all 3 since you can't shoot the mossy one-handed...The AR can't be tucked in your belt to carry things so a handgun is a logical choice.


I also have three handguns, two in 9mm and one in .32. I'd probably trade off the M&P 9 (and keep the Shield 9) as part of this move, to generate cash for a new purchase, whether that's a different shotgun or an AR-15 variant.

I believe handguns can be very effective tools. I don't have worry that 8 rounds of 9mm, plus whatever my long gun is, won't be enough. If they're THAT determined to get me, then I'll just look forward to meeting my maker.
smile.gif
 
I think a pump with a pistol grip and the minimum legal barrel with #4 shot would probably be the best.

NO sling, so it wont snag on door knobs or give the intruder something extra to grab.

The benefit of this setup is it can be used as a club if needed IMO, almost like a baseball bat if you hold it just behind the trigger guard with the left hand and jut above the trigger guard on the receiver with the right hand.

Nice and heavy and gives a nice dual purpose if desperately needed. If you keep it unloaded this can be great.

Popping away at someone at five feet with an AR... I don't know.
 
Originally Posted By: RedOakRanch
My post agrees with yours if you read it. My statements point out one plan without discounting others.
It's simply not a good plan. Aggression wins fights. While you're racking and hoping you could be trying to win. Someone in my house in the middle of the night receives no breaks. Your plan gives the intruder information they can use to change their tactics. It could be to run. It could be to start shooting. Police patrolling on the streets have different rules and objectives. Brandishing a shotguns and racking the slide may indeed diffuse a potential situation.
 
There is some good info here. I come from a big shooting family and we have all of the above. The most important thing at the end of the day is to shoot what your most comfortable with and that means try them all. My wife prefers a revolver, my mom has a 20ga single shot, my dad a .17 rifle, I like all of them! Just make sure they are quickly accessible to you and not to others.
 
One thing you're discounting is the noise. Shooting a gun/rifle/shotgun in your house is going to be very loud. Your ears will ring. You will be disoriented if you're not ready for it. That is something to train for.

If multiple people are coming in your house uninvited, with body armor and firearms and a tactical plan to do you harm at 3am, you're in a heap of trouble. You need an alarm and early detection so you can implement your plan.

If it's just one druggie looking to make a quick score and get out, you're fine with any firearm.

What I'm getting at is the window where your choice of firearm will matter is very small and not worth stressing about.

The data I've seen says the AR15 is better than the shotgun for HD but again, it's not worth stressing about and I concur with RedOakRanch's post above, just be comfortable with what your weapon of choice is.
 
As far as auto loaders vs pumps, training is important with both, of course. Autoshuckers can ftf, then you need to deal with that situation. Like many rare events, it is most likely to occur at the most inconvenient time.

Pump guns are analogous to DA revolvers. If no bang, pump again and pull trigger, there's no separate procedure to learn/practice/implement. (Unless a shell has really gotten whacked up in the receiver, then your reaching for your side arm. I've had shells get jammed in a reliable, broken in browning auto loaders to the point where dropping the trigger group was necessary to clear the shell. Only happened once, but it can happen.).

Auto loading shotguns generally require a solid mount to function properly. In a defense situation, pulling the trigger might occur prior to proper mounting of the gun due to stress/hurry.

Mossberg 410 with slugs would be another option. Still enough energy to get the job done. (more than combat pistol caliber)

With shot, you are not counting on any appreciable spread shooting across a typical room. You do gain multiple wound paths, and increased wound size/blood loss. Actually spraying a target or increasing chances of a hit are not going to happen.
 
Originally Posted By: Leo99

If multiple people are coming in your house uninvited, with body armor and firearms and a tactical plan to do you harm at 3am, you're in a heap of trouble.


I've seen this mentioned twice now. Does this actually happen? Are normal US civilians having their homes invaded by trained criminals with entry plans and body armour? And I mean folks that aren't in the mob or something along those lines.

I ask because I've certainly never heard of it happening up here so I'm surprised to read the topic touch on it twice now.
 
Another thing to note is where I live crime is very low, violent crime is almost non existent, so what I deem sufficient might not be in other areas. I'm all for defending the home at all costs but for the average untrained person, having the intruder leave on there own is less risky than you taking them out.
 
Originally Posted By: Leo99
The data I've seen says the AR15 is better than the shotgun for HD but again, it's not worth stressing about and I concur with RedOakRanch's post above, just be comfortable with what your weapon of choice is.


I need to continue to read up on .223 ammunition and the potential for going through walls with it. I've always been told that "the shotgun is the best for indoors because it won't go through walls." That statement seems to be just as inaccurate as the one that says, "you don't have to aim with a shotgun, just pull the trigger."

In other words, I guess my eyes are just recently opening to the fact that, no, shot will absolutely penetrate walls; sometimes two or three of them. And I guess from that perspective, if shot doesn't offer a safety advantage in terms of penetrating more walls than I'd like, and if another choice is, in fact, more suited to that, then that's something I'd like to explore.
 
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