Rolling all great ideas into one for “bespoke” oil

SubieRubyRoo

SubieRubyRoo

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@OVERKILL, You and I have had what I think are some really good discussions on moly, VII, viscosity, and several other oil characteristics. This is getting its own thread because the moly-only thread got shut down.

Dave Ward has teased some details about “bespoke” oils they’re working on, and from everything that I’ve learned from you, @MolaKule and @High Performance Lubricants i can say that what sounds “ideal” to me (tuned up dual-injected 3.5 EcoBoost) would be a 13-13.5 cSt@100*C, no-VII, max trimer load of moly (~700+ppm?), about 350-400ppm boron, with Euro additive levels and healthy amounts of AN and esters, and a TBN north of 13. Is it possible? That’s why I put this here to see what Dave thinks; I’d happily crank my tune to max and run some dyno tests with both oils. I wouldn’t even complain one bit if it carried SuperCar pricing…

About the only bad thing I can think about this is that HPL SubieRubyRoo 10w30 doesn’t quite have the ring of HPL Overkill 0w20! 🤣 Thoughts?
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
@OVERKILL, You and I have had what I think are some really good discussions on moly, VII, viscosity, and several other oil characteristics. This is getting its own thread because the moly-only thread got shut down.

Dave Ward has teased some details about “bespoke” oils they’re working on, and from everything that I’ve learned from you, @MolaKule and @High Performance Lubricants i can say that what sounds “ideal” to me (tuned up dual-injected 3.5 EcoBoost) would be a 13-13.5 cSt@100*C, no-VII, max trimer load of moly (~700+ppm?), about 350-400ppm boron, with Euro additive levels and healthy amounts of AN and esters, and a TBN north of 13. Is it possible? That’s why I put this here to see what Dave thinks; I’d happily crank my tune to max and run some dyno tests with both oils. I wouldn’t even complain one bit if it carried SuperCar pricing…

About the only bad thing I can think about this is that HPL SubieRubyRoo 10w30 doesn’t quite have the ring of HPL Overkill 0w20! 🤣 Thoughts?
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I think that's a great idea, though I think it's important to note that Dave at @High Performance Lubricants doesn't share the view of some on here that VII is the devil. In his mind, it's a valuable formulation tool and I take him at his word on that.

That said, I'm not sure how heavy you can go without VII and still keep a decent Winter rating. I know you can do a 5W-30, but can you do a heavy 5W-30? Can you do a 5W-40 or does it end up being a 10W-40? That will be a question Dave will need to answer.

On the additive package, we are on the same page, what's why I asked Dave about the 0W-20, I wanted that robust Euro additive package (no constraints put on phosphorous) but in a grade that was appropriate for my truck.

On the moly topic, based on my discussions with Dave, it's often a blend of FM's that yield the best performance, not just one specific FM. This can include dimer, trimer, tungsten and titanium (though not sure if HPL uses titanium). It should also be noted that this balance/blend changes based on the rest of the oil. What's ideal for the A40 Super Car additive package may not be for the dexos PCMO one for example.

Neat topic choice! (y)
 
OVERKILL said:
I think that's a great idea, though I think it's important to note that Dave at @High Performance Lubricants doesn't share the view of some on here that VII is the devil. In his mind, it's a valuable formulation tool and I take him at his word on that.

That said, I'm not sure how heavy you can go without VII and still keep a decent Winter rating. I know you can do a 5W-30, but can you do a heavy 5W-30? Can you do a 5W-40 or does it end up being a 10W-40? That will be a question Dave will need to answer.

On the additive package, we are on the same page, what's why I asked Dave about the 0W-20, I wanted that robust Euro additive package (no constraints put on phosphorous) but in a grade that was appropriate for my truck.

On the moly topic, based on my discussions with Dave, it's often a blend of FM's that yield the best performance, not just one specific FM. This can include dimer, trimer, tungsten and titanium (though not sure if HPL uses titanium). It should also be noted that this balance/blend changes based on the rest of the oil. What's ideal for the A40 Super Car additive package may not be for the dexos PCMO one for example.

Neat topic choice! (y)
Click to expand...
Love the feedback. I know I’m just scratching the surface of true oil knowledge; but as I’ve said before, we’ve got several extremely challenging industrial applications that HPL has already started to make some bespoke lubricants for the company I work for; I fully intend to learn everything I can while working with them.

We’ve discussed some plans to attack a couple different avenues, and I will do what I can for the board to help the EcoBoost guys with data & HPLs expertise. There are very few times one gets to be on the bleeding edge of development, and I get the gravity of being able to work with a company like HPL. I didn’t mean to imply Dave is anti-VII; obviously there are some good characteristics they can bring when used appropriately, but as you and I have discussed, lower VII brings the benefit of lower Noack & hopefully lower IVD. That’s why for “my” EcoBoost oil I’d want as close to zero VII- probably need two different blends; one for summer with a heavier mid-13cSt weight, and a winter one that aimed for the 10.5-11 range to achieve reasonable winter performance. Not sure if these make sense or are even possible at this point; that’s what we’ve got oil experts for 😉
 
cheesepuffs2 said:
Why are people so against VIIs?
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Dave and I have had discussions just like I’ve had with @OVERKILL; VIIs are not “bad” when used judiciously, but as more and higher VII levels are used there is a direct (negative) correlation with Noack. Higher VI oils like TGMO have crazy-high evaporation levels, which are then turned into intake valve deposits (IVD) via the PCV system. For pure direct injection engines, this can have a direct impact on engine performance. It seems to make sense that DI engines that are not hybrid (port) injected, keeping VII low (and therefore VI is lower) will be beneficial.

I think there’s a lot here for all of us to learn about; we’ve all been limited to whatever the Big 3 have been willing to offer on the shelves, rather than a no-holds-barred offering that combines all of the best knowledge, compounds, and technologies all rolled into one oil.

It seems HPL is willing to deliver these products if enough volume is there… so why wouldn’t we ask the hardest questions, provide brutal test beds, and leverage this inside muscle to move not only board knowledge but what’s available to our beloved industry while we can?
 
They are almost done…. Thanks for the kind words. The nice thing about being small is the ability to be flexible. More later. They are about to push tonight’s main at the Chili Bowl.

3712AD5F-78D0-4713-8F54-A6820C879D6B.jpeg
 
By "Euro additive levels" I assume you mean ACEA Ax/Bx rather than ACEA Cx levels? Even so, why the high TBN? Unless you're planning on long-draining I can't see a benefit of much over 11.
 
weasley said:
By "Euro additive levels" I assume you mean ACEA Ax/Bx rather than ACEA Cx levels? Even so, why the high TBN? Unless you're planning on long-draining I can't see a benefit of much over 11.
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Long drain is one possible goal; the other is as a TGDI engine we know they get more fuel in the oil. With E10 gas all the time and varying higher levels of ethanol (I can run up to E30 now and E50-E85 with an upgraded HPFP) I want to make sure there’s as much to neutralize the corrosive effects of ethanol as possible. I don’t short trip and get the oil plenty hot on a daily basis, but if the opportunity is there for more protection I’m all for it.
 
I always thought the M1, 10W-40 (Racing 4t) motorcycle oil was about as robust a package as ever existed. No significant shear in MC gearboxes. Very low pour point, adequate viscosity at 100c and excellent VI and HTHS.

Why not take this formula and improve upon it. A pour point lower than -50, HTHS above 4.5, 3000ppm Ca, 1200/1200+ Zn/P, with a PAO base stock, AN additive package carrier and some other magic only known to the engineers...
 
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I guess I’m surprised there’s not more interest in an oil like this from the EcoBoost crowd. I understand HPL’s PCMO is plenty capable on it’s own for a stock truck and even on the 87 octane perf-tow tune. I guess with all the guys who either have thinned out oils or are endlessly changing at 4-6k are happy with what they’ve got? I’ll see if Dave can share what something like this would look like, and see if that generates any more interest. Oh well, c’est la vie… 😁
 
TiGeo said:
Yes I've read through it. Just asking a basic question as I don't understand what you get with no VII?
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Read the PDS…. One of the biggest aims (at least in my little mind) is to keep Noack as low as possible to minimize evaporation and therefore oil in the intake tract.

It makes sense on a GDI (significantly slows IVD & need for walnut cleanings), and it makes even better sense on a turbo engine- vaporized/misted oil ignites at a very low (relative) temperature and can cause or exacerbate detonation issues.

It also reduces the opportunity for mechanical shear since the VII tails are not present, and would appear to offer better characteristics when exposed to fuel dilution- the VIIs are not present to be affected by the fuel content, and it will help one diagnose the difference between fuel dilution and mechanical shear.

Dave- how did I do? 🤣

FWIW, I already told Dave I’ll take the first 6 quarts of the No-VII Euro 5w30 off the filler for my EcoBoost. VOA and UOAs will follow 😉
 
TiGeo said:
Yes I've read through it. Just asking a basic question as I don't understand what you get with no VII?
Click to expand...
A lot, however, I had a stressful and exhausting week so far and don't want to get into it because I might say something stupid.

Off the top of my head:
  • Super High HTFS for the grade
  • Zero Shear - Perfect Shear Stability
  • Higher Resistance to Fuel Dilution
  • Clean Pistons and Rings
There is a lot more to it than that. I'm just too tired at the moment to think, lol.
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
Read the PDS…. One of the biggest aims (at least in my little mind) is to keep Noack as low as possible to minimize evaporation and therefore oil in the intake tract.

It makes sense on a GDI (significantly slows IVD & need for walnut cleanings), and it makes even better sense on a turbo engine- vaporized/misted oil ignites at a very low (relative) temperature and can cause or exacerbate detonation issues.

It also reduces the opportunity for mechanical shear since the VII tails are not present, and would appear to offer better characteristics when exposed to fuel dilution- the VIIs are not present to be affected by the fuel content, and it will help one diagnose the difference between fuel dilution and mechanical shear.

Dave- how did I do? 🤣

FWIW, I already told Dave I’ll take the first 6 quarts of the No-VII Euro 5w30 off the filler for my EcoBoost. VOA and UOAs will follow 😉
Click to expand...
And we can't get a 5W40 spread I take it without VIIs? I'm interested in shear stability aspect.
 
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