New Tacoma V6 Break-in and LSPI

[Danno]

I'll leave it at I hope you don't have any problems requiring it going back to the dealer.

Had an unknown to me, tuned 2021 Tiguan traded in, went to VW dealer post sale for owner update in case of warranty work. Dealer flagged it as tuned, and voided all remaining powertrain warranty across their systems. We reimbursed the customer their full purchase price. We took a loss on auctioning that one with disclosure on voided warranty.

You take your chances when tuning vehicles in warranty.
Not worth it imo, but hey, do what you will with your vehicles.

 

[Lavrishevo]

Can you actually feel something going on? Almost like a “fish bite” sensation? A feeling of when a fish bites your line a few times in a couple seconds, and then let’s go.

I always thought that was a firm of LSPI on a direct injection engine, but reading from the comments, I guess I’m wrong and it’s just some sort of preignition event. Either way, I have felt this sensation in direct injection engines at low speed, light throttle.

Oil is not going to change anything here, I’d get rid of that tune and make sure I was using a top tier fuel...and I’d try to up my gas pedal pressure early on until it warmed up enough to not feel the event.

No feeling or perceived difference in driving. As mentioned, it’s very minor and I was assuming it was LSPI, when in fact it’s just very minor knock from lugging or being too easy on the throttle.

 

[thastinger]

I guess I missed the part where it has a tune on it. Do you have a handheld to send your tuners logs with? They should be able to clear that tip-in up, but if it is detonating at tip-in then I sure wouldn't be driving it, won't last long like that. I would think you should be logging
STFT B1&B2
LTFT B1&B2
Load
RPM
MAF AD Count
TP Absolute
Speed
commanded gear

and I would get myself a wideband, you can log that as an analog input

 

[demarpaint]

Had an unknown to me, tuned 2021 Tiguan traded in, went to VW dealer post sale for owner update in case of warranty work. Dealer flagged it as tuned, and voided all remaining powertrain warranty across their systems. We reimbursed the customer their full purchase price. We took a loss on auctioning that one with disclosure on voided warranty.

You take your chances when tuning vehicles in warranty.
Not worth it imo, but hey, do what you will with your vehicles.

It happens, and the dealership did the right thing in your example imo. In this case it is the owner doing the tune, and IIRC they can tell if a tune was done, and/or undone, granted they'd have to look. If I were having an issue with a new vehicle I'd be bringing it in, not trying to reprogram it. Opinions vary.

 

[Lavrishevo]

Had an unknown to me, tuned 2021 Tiguan traded in, went to VW dealer post sale for owner update in case of warranty work. Dealer flagged it as tuned, and voided all remaining powertrain warranty across their systems. We reimbursed the customer their full purchase price. We took a loss on auctioning that one with disclosure on voided warranty.

You take your chances when tuning vehicles in warranty.
Not worth it imo, but hey, do what you will with your vehicles.

Again, this is Toyota not Volkswagen group, it is not a traditional flash that sets a counter. It is NOT detectable. I’ve done my homework. I’ve spoken to Toyota techs. Even took my truck to my dealer to see if they could enable an option via techstream, which unfortunately is not available on the Tacoma. Rolling the windows down with the key fob. Nothing detected or out of the ordinary.

The tuner even updates the ECU with OEM updates before modification / applying the adjusted settings. My truck did not have any updates as it was new. Whole group of us getting tuned at the same time. Very fast process. Fantastic mod for those that are interested.

 

[Lavrishevo]

Injen claims 99.53% of “finer dust and dirt.” In the real world, it’ll mean zero to negligible difference assuming he isn’t trying to create another Dust Bowl single-handedly.

Correct, this truck is mostly a pavement princess .

 

[TiGeo]

Can you actually feel something going on? Almost like a “fish bite” sensation? A feeling of when a fish bites your line a few times in a couple seconds, and then let’s go.

I always thought that was a firm of LSPI on a direct injection engine, but reading from the comments, I guess I’m wrong and it’s just some sort of preignition event. Either way, I have felt this sensation in direct injection engines at low speed, light throttle.

Oil is not going to change anything here, I’d get rid of that tune and make sure I was using a top tier fuel...and I’d try to up my gas pedal pressure early on until it warmed up enough to not feel the event.

It's not pre-ignition which is somewhat rare (you'll know if you have it b/c there will be a hole in your piston) vs. standard knock which just about any modern car will ecounter on a daily basis.

 

[TiGeo]

Did I say it was pre ignition?

It was a general comment about many references in this thread to PI that happened to be a response to your post.

 

[TiGeo]

Keep in mind w/r to warranty that the common dialogue online of "the dealer has to prove the XYZ caused an issue" w/r to tunes/aftermarekt parts sounds great on a forum post but in the end, the dealer is the warranty gatekeeper you have to get through almost always and the headache of dealing with this from a dealer that wants to say "no" is going to be a huge pain in the rear. Almost any tune that is flashed to the ECU is detectable by the OE, I know of none that aren't but I'm certainly not the SME on every brand/tuner/logic/etc. The only ones that are basically full-proof are piggy backs b/c they leave no trace (even taht is debated) on the ECU. I am not a warranty worrier or slave to a warranty so whatever, but accept that a major drivetrain issue can be denied based on any aftermarket part/tune as it's quite easy for the OE to show that it was the cause.

 

[Lavrishevo]

Keep in mind w/r to warranty that the common dialogue online of "the dealer has to prove the XYZ caused an issue" w/r to tunes/aftermarekt parts sounds great on a forum post but in the end, the dealer is the warranty gatekeeper you have to get through almost always and the headache of dealing with this from a dealer that wants to say "no" is going to be a huge pain in the rear. Almost any tune that is flashed to the ECU is detectable by the OE, I know of none that aren't but I'm certainly not the SME on every brand/tuner/logic/etc. The only ones that are basically full-proof are piggy backs b/c they leave no trace (even taht is debated) on the ECU. I am not a warranty worrier or slave to a warranty so whatever, but accept that a major drivetrain issue can be denied based on any aftermarket part/tune as it's quite easy for the OE to show that it was the cause.

Agreed. What is happening is the calibration ID is not changed. Toyota techs are not paid or concerned with digging into exact ECU parameters. They look for this ID and move forward. Technically, yes there is evidence of changes if you actually compare ECU settings vs stock but it’s not something they are paid to do or is standard procedure. Unlike Audi / VW that sets a TD1 I believe it’s called, immediately. So technically, it can be detected if they dig into ecu parameters extensively but nobody is doing this and since the adjustments are not causing any common failures it doubt this will change.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Sure but unless you live in the dust bowl this decrease in filtering isn't wearing out your engine in any mileage that would matter to most folks.

Source?

With an CAI and high flow filter, the engine will be contaminated up to 18 times faster.

“In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.”

Debunking the K&N Myth - Why OEM is Better

Before spending your money on an aftermarket intake, let's debunk the misleading incomplete info about filtering and horsepower in the sales literature.

www.nicoclub.com

The silica and corundum particles which dramatically exceed the hardness of engine components will be larger and more abundant per unit of operating time when a high flow filter is used. Cylinder walls, crank journals, MAF/MAP sensors, etc. are all susceptible.

“The dust together with the oil forms a kind of abrasive paste, which penetrates between the mating surfaces of the engine parts, e.g., piston-piston rings-cylinder wall, causing their abrasive wear.

As a result of the movement of the piston towards its bottom dead center (BTC) the rings scrape oil and contaminants from the cylinder floor into the oil sump. After reaching the lubrication system, the contaminants are distributed via the oil system to those tribological areas of the engine that are lubricated by oil and thus subject to accelerated wear. These include, for example, friction pairs: the “journal–cup” plain bearings of the crankshaft and camshaft, and the valve guide–valve stem assembly.”

And it does matter in reasonable timeframes. In just 25,000 mi, a “contaminated” Cummins engine in the test made 18% less power than a non-contaminated engine.

Increased dust above 1 micron must be avoided, else increased wear will occur.

“An inherent phenomenon of complicated piston ring movements during their operation is pumping oil over the piston bottom into the combustion chamber. The burning oil increases the emission of toxic exhaust components. It should be noted that blow-through of compressed cargo and exhaust gases to the crankcase occurs in every engine, but with the mileage of the vehicle and the progressive wear of the P-PR-CL combination elements, this phenomenon increases and may have an impact on the increased emission of toxic components of exhaust gases.

The unfavorable phenomenon of friction and wear of friction components of an engine, resulting mainly from the presence of dust, is an inherent process of car engine operation. This phenomenon can be minimized by:

• use of filtration materials with the use of nanofibers, which increase the effectiveness and accuracy of engine inlet air filtration—grains above 1 µm,
• use of wear-resistant ring and cylinder surfaces by spraying
• Texturing of ring and cylinder surfaces,
• use of suitable lubricating oils and fuels.

Dust in the air drawn into the engine is trapped and deposited on the measuring element of the air mass sensor. Other contaminants (moisture, salt, oil) also settle on this element, but dust grains are particularly dangerous due to their hardness and sharp edges. Firstly, the deposited layer of dust is mainly silica, which is a good insulator and deteriorates the heat exchange between the measuring element material and the flowing air, which is the essence of the flow meter operation. The voltage generated by the flowmeter then has a lower value than an efficient flowmeter, which the computer reads as a smaller mass of air and dispenses a smaller mass of fuel. As a result, engine power decreases. In addition, dust grains coming in at high speed scratch the surface of the airflow meter’s heating wire and reduce its life, which combined with vibrations from the engine can cause it to break.“

A Study on the Effect of Inlet Air Pollution on the Engine Component Wear and Operation

This paper systematically reviews the research progress in the field of the influence of air pollutants in the engine inlet on the accelerated wear of the elements of the association: piston, piston rings, cylinder liner (P-PR-CL), and plain bearing (journal–panel). It was shown at the outset...

www.mdpi.com

Plenty of people live where it’s dusty. Moreover, atmospheric dust travels much, much farther than most people think. This place (where I and many others, drive vehicles regularly) is not actually that far from the east coast on a planetary scale.

 

[TiGeo]

I've read that study, I've done my homework. I've been running K&Ns in all of my vehicles for the last ~25 years, no issues, no premature wear. There are a ton of threads over in the air filter sub that touch on all the pros/cons.

 

[TiGeo]

Agreed. What is happening is the calibration ID is not changed. Toyota techs are not paid or concerned with digging into exact ECU parameters. They look for this ID and move forward. Technically, yes there is evidence of changes if you actually compare ECU settings vs stock but it’s not something they are paid to do or is standard procedure. Unlike Audi / VW that sets a TD1 I believe it’s called, immediately. So technically, it can be detected if they dig into ecu parameters extensively but nobody is doing this and since the adjustments are not causing any common failures it doubt this will change.

You know the Toyota world, I don't so all good there. Yes, very familar with teh VW one and it's detected easily IF they have to hook up and run a certain diagnostic called for for many warranty claims. My car has been tuned since new and I've had several warranty claims approved without drama b/c my dealer isn't ridiculous about it.

 

[Astro14]

No feeling or perceived difference in driving. As mentioned, it’s very minor and I was assuming it was LSPI, when in fact it’s just very minor knock from lugging or being too easy on the throttle.

Which your OM says should be expected.

Big difference from actual LSPI.

BUT, and this is a big but, I’m not buying the claim that the dealer “can’t tell it’s been tuned”.

Sure they can. I’ve got dealer software, running on laptops, for both Mercedes and Volvo.

I can see every change.

If I can, so can a Toyota tech.

What’s interesting about your choices of tune and fuel is that together, they exacerbate the bit of pre-ignition that this engine already has.

I know ethanol improves octane, but it can cause other issues in a non flex fuel vehicle. Your tune bumps up the timing on a high compression engine, which absolutely makes things worse.

My Tundra is flex fuel. Runs on everything. Does great on 87. Has a bit more power on E85 (non-verified unscientific butt dyno evaluation) but it’s happy on regular. No pinging. Even when towing 7,000+ lbs.

I wouldn’t put up with a truck that doesn’t run right.

 

[cptbarkey]

@Lavrishevo thank you for sharing and being open with the information. You seem impervious to the various cirticisms so far in this thread. Do followup with any issues you run into, I'm sure the community will appreciate the free data. UOAs will be interesting to see if you choose to do so.

 

[Lavrishevo]

You know the Toyota world, I don't so all good there. Yes, very familar with teh VW one and it's detected easily IF they have to hook up and run a certain diagnostic called for for many warranty claims. My car has been tuned since new and I've had several warranty claims approved without drama b/c my dealer isn't ridiculous about it.

So much of warranty issues being processed or denied are based on ones personal relationship with a dealer. The cool thing is with my research I have never heard of a single person being denied a warranty claim with an OTT tune.

 

[TiGeo]

So much of warranty issues being processed or denied are based on ones personal relationship with a dealer. The cool thing is with my research I have never heard of a single person being denied a warranty claim with an OTT tune.

And the fact is....how often does someone blow a motor/trans etc.? Almost never. The small things that a warranty usually is used for are almost always covered b/c they aren't related in any way to an ECU tune.

 

[Lavrishevo]

And the fact is....how often does someone blow a motor/trans etc.? Almost never. The small things that a warranty usually is used for are almost always covered b/c they aren't related in any way to an ECU tune.

Exactly.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Again, this is Toyota not Volkswagen group, it is not a traditional flash that sets a counter. It is NOT detectable. I’ve done my homework. I’ve spoken to Toyota techs. Even took my truck to my dealer to see if they could enable an option via techstream, which unfortunately is not available on the Tacoma. Rolling the windows down with the key fob. Nothing detected or out of the ordinary.

The tuner even updates the ECU with OEM updates before modification / applying the adjusted settings. My truck did not have any updates as it was new. Whole group of us getting tuned at the same time. Very fast process. Fantastic mod for those that are interested.

I highly recommend doing it yourself though. It’s really easy. If you go the self-flash route, you’ll end up having several tunes you can switch between whenever you want.

 

[02zx9r rev2]

Oh and a $30 spectrographic analysis doesn’t illustrate comparative oil quality either.

Right on cue