New ride! I'm "shocked"...

[Snagglefoot]

I am OK with any electric car as long as the electric power is not sourced from a coal burning plant. The reason being, if its a coal plant your car is powered by coal, not much of an improvement.

I the case of Phoenix, correct me if I am wrong but I believe the source of most of the power used by Phoenix is the Palo Verde nuclear power plant west of town. You have a commonality with the souped up Nuclear Delorian from the Back to the Future movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station

 

[Snagglefoot]

As I was saying:

https://youtu.be/ptlhgFaB89Y

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
I am OK with any electric car as long as the electric power is not sourced from a coal burning plant. The reason being, if its a coal plant your car is powered by coal, not much of an improvement.

I the case of Phoenix, correct me if I am wrong but I believe the source of most of the power used by Phoenix is the Palo Verde nuclear power plant west of town. You have a commonality with the souped up Nuclear Delorian from the Back to the Future movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station


OP bought a Volt, not a Prius. Went back and re-read his post and he said nothing about being all warm and fuzzy about saving the polar ice caps on his commute. Sure it's nice but keeping dollars in the pocket is the primary concern of most EV buyers.

Not sure what PHX has to do with this as the OP lives in MN, but to offset that nuke plant we have the venerable coal-fired Navajo Generating Station up north at Page that burns mountains of Navajo coal from nearby. It's slated to shut down next year, pending protests by the native indigenous people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Generating_Station

 

[Snagglefoot]

Whoops, I must have read one of the Arizona addresses by accident. Thanks for picking that up. So, 14Accent has a coal powered car. Nice. But I am not a greeny by any means so I am A-OK with that. Yes, I understand it's a Volt and that means he can give it a charge and the motor does not kick in until the charge is down and the "generator" kicks in. If his trip is short enough he will rarely buy gas.

OK, it's down to the electric power cost. How much is power in MN on a kwhr basis. Let's get some numbers out there.
Also, what car do you think is similar to the Volt in size and function, but in the internal combustion category.

Don't get me wrong. If I could find a Volt up here for that price, I would be interested in it, especially because my power is 8 cents U.S per kwhr. (An added greeny bonus would be that my power is sourced from the hydro electric dams in the area, as my present home is in SE British Columbia.)

So, can someone chime in on many kwhrs the car goes through in one day and what is the price per kwhr for electricity in MN.

Anyway, kudos to 14Accent for leading the way.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Ok, according to a recent website residential power in Minnesota is 10.6 cents per kwhr which is not bad. The price 14Accent paid is really not any more than say, a 2013 Chevy cruise, which is a great deal.

 

[14Accent]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Whoops, I must have read one of the Arizona addresses by accident. Thanks for picking that up. So, 14Accent has a coal powered car. Nice. But I am not a greeny by any means so I am A-OK with that. Yes, I understand it's a Volt and that means he can give it a charge and the motor does not kick in until the charge is down and the "generator" kicks in. If his trip is short enough he will rarely buy gas.

OK, it's down to the electric power cost. How much is power in MN on a kwhr basis. Let's get some numbers out there.
Also, what car do you think is similar to the Volt in size and function, but in the internal combustion category.

Don't get me wrong. If I could find a Volt up here for that price, I would be interested in it, especially because my power is 8 cents U.S per kwhr. (An added greeny bonus would be that my power is sourced from the hydro electric dams in the area, as my present home is in SE British Columbia.)

So, can someone chime in on many kwhrs the car goes through in one day and what is the price per kwhr for electricity in MN.

Anyway, kudos to 14Accent for leading the way.



Thanks guy! The most comparable car out right now, for arguments sake, is the Cruze hatchback. The Volt rides on the same platform and uses the same suspension.

Our electricity is about 28 cents per kWh, I can and will be getting a discount from my electric company for charging at off-peak times, which drops that to 14 cents between 9pm and 9am, which is pretty much exactly when I charge. If I get home at 7 like usual I can program the car to not start drawing until 9.

*Edit* I just looked again, and I guess my numbers were wrong. I must have been going off old info. Looks like it is about 10 cents, I have no idea where I got 28.

 

[Snagglefoot]

OK great. It's my lunch hour in Calgary so I am dedicating it to this while I each my sandwich.

I tried to find some info on the Volt. I came across a forum where the owner had a Volt and said they can get 50 miles from a charge. They didn't elaborate on speed, or city driving etc. So let's use 50 miles. They said they charge on a 120 V outlet for 13 hours and it charges at 12 Amps. So Power = I x V or Watts = amps x volts. I is 12 Amps. V = 120 Volts. 12 x 120 = 1440 Watts. Ok, now we convert 1440 W to kw by dividing by 1000. 1440 kW/1000 = 1.44 kw. Assuming the battery is 100% efficient (which it really is not, but close enough) 1.44 kw x 13 hrs is 18.7 kwhrs of energy. That much power costs 18.7 kwhrs x .14 $ per kwhr. = $2.26 to go 50 miles. Also there are some minor efficiency losses in converting the battery power to kinetic energy but let's ignore that.

OK, so I checked the price of a 2013 Cruise on Auto Trader in St. Paul and it is the same as the Volt in question. Check.
I also checked what kind of gas mileage it gets and it is about 33 mpg combined driving. I checked out the price of gas in St.Paul in Gas Buddy and it is $2.26 per gallon. So, for the Cruise to go 50 miles it burns 50 miles/33 mpg which equals 1.5 gallons of gas. At $2.26 per gallon that would cost $3.39.

So there you have it. To go 50 miles, the Volt would need $2.26 in electrical power and the Cruise would need $3.39 in gas. The Volt costs 33% less. I'm open to any discussion on that and please check my numbers.

 

[14Accent]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
OK great. It's my lunch hour in Calgary so I am dedicating it to this while I each my sandwich.

I tried to find some info on the Volt. I came across a forum where the owner had a Volt and said they can get 50 miles from a charge. They didn't elaborate on speed, or city driving etc. So let's use 50 miles. They said they charge is on a 120 V outlet for 13 hours and it charges at 12 Amps. So Power = I x V or Watts = amps x volts. I is 12 Amps. V = 120 Volts. 12 x 120 = 1440 Watts. Ok, now we convert 1440 W to kw by dividing by 1000. 1440 kW/100 = 14.4 kw. Assuming the battery is 100% efficient (which it really is not, but close enough) 14.4 kw x 13 hrs is 187.2 kwhrs of energy.


Almost. The first gen Volt has a 16 kWh battery, in 2013 I believe 10.5 of that is usable. The usable amount increased twice through production. Also, the car can use UP TO 12 amps while charging, however the car decides how much to use at any given time. Lithium batteries don't like being given max charge rate as they approach full, so assume it starts at 12A and drops to around 3A for the last few percent.

It's hard to say exactly how much it will cost to charge it daily or to predict range due to temperature, driving style, and average speed. It's all a learning curve for me. Good thing I love learning about cars (unfortunately I hate math, so buying a car that almost begs you to keep track is a bit of an oxymoron).

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted By: 14Accent
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
OK great. It's my lunch hour in Calgary so I am dedicating it to this while I each my sandwich.

I tried to find some info on the Volt. I came across a forum where the owner had a Volt and said they can get 50 miles from a charge. They didn't elaborate on speed, or city driving etc. So let's use 50 miles. They said they charge is on a 120 V outlet for 13 hours and it charges at 12 Amps. So Power = I x V or Watts = amps x volts. I is 12 Amps. V = 120 Volts. 12 x 120 = 1440 Watts. Ok, now we convert 1440 W to kw by dividing by 1000. 1440 kW/100 = 14.4 kw. Assuming the battery is 100% efficient (which it really is not, but close enough) 14.4 kw x 13 hrs is 187.2 kwhrs of energy.


Almost. The first gen Volt has a 16 kWh battery, in 2013 I believe 10.5 of that is usable. The usable amount increased twice through production. Also, the car can use UP TO 12 amps while charging, however the car decides how much to use at any given time. Lithium batteries don't like being given max charge rate as they approach full, so assume it starts at 12A and drops to around 3A for the last few percent.

It's hard to say exactly how much it will cost to charge it daily or to predict range due to temperature, driving style, and average speed. It's all a learning curve for me. Good thing I love learning about cars (unfortunately I hate math, so buying a car that almost begs you to keep track is a bit of an oxymoron).


Speaking of math I corrected a math error, finished off the calcs and resubmitted the findings. Please see it in my previous posting. Thanks. Sounds like you are going to be happy with your gasoline savings.

SF

 

[Snagglefoot]

Ok, going back to 10 cents per kwhr instead of 14 cents, you just gave yourself a boost and now your cost is 10/14 * 2.26 = $1.61 per 50 miles. Now you beat gasoline by $1.61/$3.39 = 47% . Your power cost for your Volt will be about 1/2 the cost of the gasoline for the Cruise. Power on!

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: 14Accent
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Whoops, I must have read one of the Arizona addresses by accident. Thanks for picking that up. So, 14Accent has a coal powered car. Nice. But I am not a greeny by any means so I am A-OK with that. Yes, I understand it's a Volt and that means he can give it a charge and the motor does not kick in until the charge is down and the "generator" kicks in. If his trip is short enough he will rarely buy gas.

OK, it's down to the electric power cost. How much is power in MN on a kwhr basis. Let's get some numbers out there.
Also, what car do you think is similar to the Volt in size and function, but in the internal combustion category.

Don't get me wrong. If I could find a Volt up here for that price, I would be interested in it, especially because my power is 8 cents U.S per kwhr. (An added greeny bonus would be that my power is sourced from the hydro electric dams in the area, as my present home is in SE British Columbia.)

So, can someone chime in on many kwhrs the car goes through in one day and what is the price per kwhr for electricity in MN.

Anyway, kudos to 14Accent for leading the way.



Thanks guy! The most comparable car out right now, for arguments sake, is the Cruze hatchback. The Volt rides on the same platform and uses the same suspension.

Our electricity is about 28 cents per kWh, I can and will be getting a discount from my electric company for charging at off-peak times, which drops that to 14 cents between 9pm and 9am, which is pretty much exactly when I charge. If I get home at 7 like usual I can program the car to not start drawing until 9.

*Edit* I just looked again, and I guess my numbers were wrong. I must have been going off old info. Looks like it is about 10 cents, I have no idea where I got 28.


$0.28 could be with delivery charges included. In Illinois, you can buy the electricity from a middleman for about $0.10/kwh and then the monopoly that owns the infrastructure will charge you a similar amount for the delivery of that electricity.

 

[14Accent]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: 14Accent
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
OK great. It's my lunch hour in Calgary so I am dedicating it to this while I each my sandwich.

I tried to find some info on the Volt. I came across a forum where the owner had a Volt and said they can get 50 miles from a charge. They didn't elaborate on speed, or city driving etc. So let's use 50 miles. They said they charge is on a 120 V outlet for 13 hours and it charges at 12 Amps. So Power = I x V or Watts = amps x volts. I is 12 Amps. V = 120 Volts. 12 x 120 = 1440 Watts. Ok, now we convert 1440 W to kw by dividing by 1000. 1440 kW/100 = 14.4 kw. Assuming the battery is 100% efficient (which it really is not, but close enough) 14.4 kw x 13 hrs is 187.2 kwhrs of energy.


Almost. The first gen Volt has a 16 kWh battery, in 2013 I believe 10.5 of that is usable. The usable amount increased twice through production. Also, the car can use UP TO 12 amps while charging, however the car decides how much to use at any given time. Lithium batteries don't like being given max charge rate as they approach full, so assume it starts at 12A and drops to around 3A for the last few percent.

It's hard to say exactly how much it will cost to charge it daily or to predict range due to temperature, driving style, and average speed. It's all a learning curve for me. Good thing I love learning about cars (unfortunately I hate math, so buying a car that almost begs you to keep track is a bit of an oxymoron).


Speaking of math I corrected a math error, finished off the calcs and resubmitted the findings. Please see it in my previous posting. Thanks. Sounds like you are going to be happy with your gasoline savings.

SF


Actually, that fuel price you found is low. St. Paul might be cheaper, but in Minneapolis I pay between $2.54 and $2.61. So 25 to 35 cents more. Guess that just swings things even more in my favor!

 

[Snagglefoot]

OK. In my jurisdiction with BC Hydro, I pay a flat rate for delivery, cats, rats and gazelles, and then slightly different prices for two tiers of kwhrs. I blow through the first tier by mid month and then I pay about 10 cents U.S. per kwhr for additional power. I don't pay any other increased fixed costs as I consume more power. For you, any fixed costs don't get included because you'd pay them regardless if you owned a Volt or not.

 

[Rand]

here there is a distro charge.

So even if your bill says its 8cents/kwh you have to dig into it more.(bills vary by company/state/country)

for example on my bill it says my power is 5.3cents/kwh..(cost of generation)

but 588kwh cost me 78$ that is 13.3cents/kwh (total cost delivered)

there are several fixed fees but its mostly a per kwh distro component.

Since the cost recovery charges+distro charges vary based on usage which is the vast majority of the bill and actually bigger than the generation charge.. I'd say charging a car would still be near 13.3cents/kwh for me. It would very slowly get slightly cheaper since the fixed charges are fixed but those are only a tiny% of the bill.




Now if it worked more like natural gas here..... because I usually pay 40-65$/month and the fixed connection fee is 28$ monthly.
That is a whole different story.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I see you have cats, rats and gazelles as well.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Here is my latest two month bill from BC Hydro. It's basically most of January and February. Charges are in Canadian dollars. Multiply by 0.77 to get US dollars. It never got above freezing in the whole two months and the average temp was about 14 F. Aside from the appliances and lights I have infloor hydronic heat from a propane boiler but the distribution pumps are electric as is the forced air fan for the boiler. I may or may not have a grow op.

Electricity charges

Based on Residential Conservation Rate 1101

Jan 4, 2018 to Mar 5, 2018 (2,264 kWh used)
Basic charge 61 days @ $0.18990 /day
$11.58

Energy charges
Step 1: 1,354 kWh @ $0.08580 /kWh
$116.17
Step 2: 910 kWh @ $0.12870 /kWh
$117.12
Rate rider 5%
$12.24



Taxes on electricity charges
GST 5% (GST Registration #R121454151)
$12.86
Electricity charges subtotal
$269.97

Total due
$269.97 Ed: In Canadian dollars and for two months of charges.

The average rate for the power itself was $0.079 US per kwhr plus 5% rate rider plus 7% general sales tax for a total of $0.089 US per kwhr. The rest was the fixed costs. For every incremental kwhr I pay $0.1286 CAN which is $0.10 US per kwh plus rate rider of 5% plus GST of 7% so it would be $0.112 U.S.per kwhr. Everything is reset every two months and once again I blow through the 1354 kwhr at the low rate on my way to the high rate.

 

[MCompact]

We noticed a slight increase in our electric bill when we leased the i3; but we rarely run it down past 50%. A Level 1 charger is all we use.