Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[A_A_G]

Sorry, but Ford's cars still can't hold a candle to Toyota and Honda in terms of long term reliability and resale value. Yes the 2az-fe did have problems with oil consumption. Mine didn't start until after 9 years of ownership and I can't complain. Had I bought a Ford, it would've never seen it's 10 year anniversary.

I won't knock their trucks, though. They build a [censored] good truck along with the coyote v8.

 

[Rolla07]

Too many threads like this. To each their own. Toyota's for me. If I could afford multiple rides, id love to get an F150 and a Jeep among many other cars of different brands. I love cars in general!

 

[KrisZ]

I buy what interests/suits me. Sure, if something major comes up during my research, I will change my mind, but other than that, I'm prepared to live with some quirks/small fixes in order to drive what I prefer, instead of settling for something that may very well be a bit more reliable, but less suited for my needs.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Too many threads like this. To each their own. Toyota's for me. If I could afford multiple rides, id love to get an F150 and a Jeep among many other cars of different brands. I love cars in general!


+1, well said Rolla!

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
A co-worker is looking for a used car for her daughter.
I noted that some of the Toyota and Scion models she was looking at had serious potential oil consumption problems and that the Hondas could have their issues as well.
I suggested that she look at Ford Focus and Fusion models and she reacted with horror.
A Ford? Those aren't any good!
I told her that she was seriously misguided as to the excellence of late model used Toys and Hondas and that in my personal experience the Focus is a solid car and the Fusion also holds up very well from what I've read. I went on to tell her that the old Tauruses in our fleet at work have been great out to about 200K and that both the '97 Aerostar we bought new and the old E350 I paid $900.00 for were very solid vehicles.
People seemed to be stuck in the nineties when it comes to their opinions on what vehicles are good and reliable.
The evidence that later Hondas and Toyotas aren't all that is readily available as is the evidence that many more recent American nameplate vehicles are very good.
I also suggested that she consider late models Hyudai/Kia cars. They're dirt cheap used just as they were dirt cheap new. They typically also have a lot of toys for the buck and if they don't have the greatest driving dynamics that won't matter to any young lady.
These Korean makes seem to be pretty durable and reliable save for the occasional thrown rod in some recent engines, but most of those have had their engines junked and replaced under warranty by now.


Actually, I would support her position. If you are not a "car person", it is a rational (although expensive) approach to reducing risk to having a trouble-free(ish) car. Keep in mind that this "brainwashed" was earned by both Toyota and Honda. They build/built a darn good commuterbox.

A used Scion or Toyota will tend to be the best for a "gas and go" vehicle. Toyota is still tops for generic reliability, especially for small cars. Toyota might not being miles ahead in the reliability area anymore, (still #1) but this is more of a result of other improving their game. Honda is in the woods and left the reliable category in my books, too hit-and-miss.

Ford on the otherhand, uggg. They are a [censored] shoot. They are all over the place and generally speaking, their Trucks/SUVs are better than their cars. So someone looking for a decent "used" small car, I would not recommend ford. I am not saying that they can't be 200,000 mile Taurus (seems more accidental if anything). I could go on about "Trixie" (a 2005 Taurus) that was on its third dealer-replaced transmission by 60K. Yeah, you are gambling more with a used Ford passenger car than a Toyota.

Have you seen the modern Fiestas, Focus, Fusions? Yeah, they are not reliable compared to the Yaris, Corolla and Camrys. As far as I am concern, the 90s approach still applies today. Do the domestics lose on everything? No, but reliability for domestics for small cars is still not-quite-there. GM on the other hand does have a few "better" vehicles and Fords are more entertaining... but go look at a Fiesta/Focus with an automatic reliability issues.

Now, I agree that the Koreans and I would say especially Mazda are the unsung reliable heroes for those not looking to pay the Toyota used premium. A Mazda6 will cost thousands less than a Camry/Accord and is better dynamically and will be as reliable as can be.

 

[Wurlitzer]

I've seen articles with titles such as "The Honda/Toyota reliability myth", where people try to discredit the reliability of Honda/Toyota.

What you will never see are articles entitled "The Ford/GM/Chrysler reliability myth", because there was never any reliability to mythicize.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Our 2 toyotas from the past decade were not reliable.
Rav 4 and Yaris.

Rav 4 had blown rear shocks, leaky water pump, rusted out exhaust, failing clutch, engine eating oil and clattering. All at 2-1/2 years 57K miles.

Wifes car who is a conservative driver with MAINLY highway miles (80/20) @ 65 MPH.

Mobil oil changed at 5k +/- and Toyota OEM filters.

 

[gofast182]

Some sad replies in a questionable thread. GM and Ford have come a long way in the last decade and, even though I have my personal preferences, I can't really fault friends/family for shopping them anymore when it comes to cars; but reputations, good and bad, absolutely exist for a reason.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: Wurlitzer
I've seen articles with titles such as "The Honda/Toyota reliability myth", where people try to discredit the reliability of Honda/Toyota.

What you will never see are articles entitled "The Ford/GM/Chrysler reliability myth", because there was never any reliability to mythicize.


In the case of Honda they have always been mediocre in the reliability front. People have been told they are great so they gloss over the major problems. Toyota? Not sure but I don't think they are heads and shoulders above the rest. But their stuff is just so God-awful boring.

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Haven't heard much about those...could it be even worse than FCA's 9 speed? Is that even possible?

Ford's dual clutch transmission is used only in the Focus and Fiesta in the U.S., so the damage is somewhat contained. It's from Getrag and built in Mexico. The Fiesta started using the DCT in 2011 and the Focus in 2012 and both are still DCT-equipped.

Ford's DCT is a dry-clutch version, which is unusual and likely a big part of the problem. Because of heat (not such a big deal in wet-clutch DCTs), the clutches can and do glaze and begin to chatter, sometimes violently, and slip. Programming for all conditions is difficult and Ford has has countless reflashes available over the years, some of which were "mandatory". Ford was also on version "F" (starting with "A", I assume) of clutches when I stopped paying attention.

At least most of the clutch issues were (huge) annoyances rather than things that left you stranded. But there's a solution to that bit of good news: the shifting itself is controlled by the Transmission Control Module (TCM), which are prone to premature failure. This will leave you stranded.

Ford upped the warranty coverage on the clutch to 7/100,000 and the TCM to 10/150,000. This is helpful, but still leaves open the possibility of being stranded by a TCM failure. But Ford also passed off behavior owners complained about as "normal" and made no other goodwill concessions. And even after all this, clutch failures continue and, at $1,500-$2,000 apiece when out of warranty, are not cheap. As noted, Ford has been held responsible in a class-action lawsuit and owners may get a few bucks or refunds for their trouble.

In any event, I got tired of dealing with it and dumped it. After this experience and with Ford's reluctance to assemble any passenger car in the US, I doubt I'll ever go back to the brand.

With the hard push to meet CAFE standards there is a lot of new technology coming out the factory door and consumers are being put in the role of beta testers, like it or not. Ford's DCT fiasco isn't the only resulting failure, but it is remarkable in that it affected really a lot of cars over long product cycles and is still not fully resolved.

 

[KCJeep]

I hear the "re-sale" myth repeated all the time. In fact my partner whom I mentioned earlier with the new tranny in his 56k Toyota liked to bring that up too, till I showed him the flaw in his logic.

True a used Honda/Toyota car will cost/sell for more used. But you buy that resale. When we bought our virtually new KIA minivan, the exact same thing in a Honda was 10 to 15k more just to buy. Years later when you want to sell, so you get 5k more back maybe on the Honda? How is that a deal? You bought that resale, and you did it against a highly depreciating item regardless of make.

Horrible financial logic. All that time you had an extra 10 to 15k riding around in your vehicle you could have used it for something else instead of getting an extra 5k back for it years later. Ouch!

I posted the other day what a disappoint our fleet of new Subaru's at work have been, but like has been mentioned earlier people could post real stories all day good and bad about any make.

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: Wurlitzer
I've seen articles with titles such as "The Honda/Toyota reliability myth", where people try to discredit the reliability of Honda/Toyota.

What you will never see are articles entitled "The Ford/GM/Chrysler reliability myth", because there was never any reliability to mythicize.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I hear the "re-sale" myth repeated all the time. In fact my partner whom I mentioned earlier with the new tranny in his 56k Toyota liked to bring that up too, till I showed him the flaw in his logic.

True a used Honda/Toyota car will cost/sell for more used. But you buy that resale. When we bought our virtually new KIA minivan, the exact same thing in a Honda was 10 to 15k more just to buy. Years later when you want to sell, so you get 5k more back maybe on the Honda? How is that a deal? You bought that resale, and you did it against a highly depreciating item regardless of make.

Horrible financial logic. All that time you had an extra 10 to 15k riding around in your vehicle you could have used it for something else instead of getting an extra 5k back for it years later. Ouch!

I posted the other day what a disappoint our fleet of new Subaru's at work have been, but like has been mentioned earlier people could post real stories all day good and bad about any make.



Resale really doesn't matter if you drive it out.
In 2000, I priced out both a new V6 Accord and a Ford Taurus. I bought the Taurus because it was 5K cheaper.
I put 275K on it in the twelve years that I had it, and sold it to a friend for $1200.
How much more would the Accord been worth? Not 5K.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Tdbo
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I hear the "re-sale" myth repeated all the time. In fact my partner whom I mentioned earlier with the new tranny in his 56k Toyota liked to bring that up too, till I showed him the flaw in his logic.

True a used Honda/Toyota car will cost/sell for more used. But you buy that resale. When we bought our virtually new KIA minivan, the exact same thing in a Honda was 10 to 15k more just to buy. Years later when you want to sell, so you get 5k more back maybe on the Honda? How is that a deal? You bought that resale, and you did it against a highly depreciating item regardless of make.

Horrible financial logic. All that time you had an extra 10 to 15k riding around in your vehicle you could have used it for something else instead of getting an extra 5k back for it years later. Ouch!

I posted the other day what a disappoint our fleet of new Subaru's at work have been, but like has been mentioned earlier people could post real stories all day good and bad about any make.



Resale really doesn't matter if you drive it out.
In 2000, I priced out both a new V6 Accord and a Ford Taurus. I bought the Taurus because it was 5K cheaper.
I put 275K on it in the twelve years that I had it, and sold it to a friend for $1200.
How much more would the Accord been worth? Not 5K.


Exactly!

Resale is a favorite line of salesmen that seems to go over well with the crowd that will pay an extra 10k or more for a vehicle and keep it 3 to 7 years. It's a horrible deal for them if you think it out, and even more of a financial ghost of a rip off if you keep your vehicle.

 

[funflyer]

Originally Posted By: macarose
Check here...

http://www.dashboard-light.com/

Plenty of data on the long-term reliability of used cars.


I had to check what I already know but, was surprised to find the Dodge Neon beat the Focus in reliability

 

[jeepman3071]

I love when I hear someone saying X Brand is the most reliable brand ever. It makes it easier for me, since now I know not to take them seriously. Scotty Kilmer is a prime example. His one solution to everyone's problem is buy a 1994 Toyota. He literally says it at least 10 times in every video.

All brands make some great cars, and some not so great cars. I'd rather buy what I like to drive knowing it may have some issues and be prepared to fix them, than be the person who spends all their money on something that is "supposed" to be perfect and have issues with it later on.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: funflyer
Originally Posted By: macarose
Check here...

http://www.dashboard-light.com/

Plenty of data on the long-term reliability of used cars.


I had to check what I already know but, was surprised to find the Dodge Neon beat the Focus in reliability

That is the most wacky survey I have seen. A Dodge Neon hasn't been made in what, 15 years?

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
That is the most wacky survey I have seen. A Dodge Neon hasn't been made in what, 15 years?


That site is junk at best. They get "proprietary data" from auction cars and report on "drivetrain issues". So you get unknown data from the junkiest cars dealers see. And you don't know what that is. Is the CEL caused by a sensor or is it something more serious? You'll never know with that site. Quality "index"

For as much hate as Consumer Reports gets around here at least they break it out in the various components so you can draw your own conclusions.

 

[funflyer]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
That is the most wacky survey I have seen. A Dodge Neon hasn't been made in what, 15 years?


That site is junk at best. They get "proprietary data" from auction cars and report on "drivetrain issues". So you get unknown data from the junkiest cars dealers see. And you don't know what that is. Is the CEL caused by a sensor or is it something more serious? You'll never know with that site. Quality "index"

For as much hate as Consumer Reports gets around here at least they break it out in the various components so you can draw your own conclusions.


Okay, here's some from Consumer Reports.

[copywrited material removed]

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: funflyer

Okay, here's some from Consumer Reports.



When did they stop breaking out the ratings? In the past they would break out engine, body, electronics, etc.