Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: Silverado12

Would be nice if you bought from the home team.


The home team left here. (More than once.)

Ford closed up the Hazelwood plant and no longer builds cars in St. Louis.
Chrysler closed up the Fenton plant and no longer makes trucks and minivans in St. Louis.

(And the Rams left too!)

Doesn't seem to me that they have any loyalty. Dodge/RAM trucks are built in Mexico. Why not in St Louis?

Most of my "Japanese" cars have been built in the US. Camry in Kentucky. Also Kentucky for my Sienna, IIRC. My Geo Prizm (Corolla with a Geo badge) in California. Same with my Pontiac Vibe (Toyota Matrix)

My Nissan was built in TN.

My Corolla may have been built in Canada let me check the VIN, nope, US, it's a "1" VIN.

Now my "American" Grand Marquis was built in Canada.

And I do currently have two J VIN cars. My 2012 Mazda3 and my 2017 Rav4 came from Japan.

But most of my cars have been built here in North America. Even the "Japanese" cars.


Java, we've had this discussion before, but I wonder how much of these domestic parts are made in foreign countries due the the "global" race to the bottom trade policies. It's all an effort to produce in either slave wage countries or the low wage South. Sooner or later all anyone will be able to afford is the cheapest of the cheap if even that.


And that's why two domestic car makers abandoned their factories here?

It has to go both ways. Can't preach "Buy American" if the American carmakers shutter their factories here.

Regarding suppliers, it's not like the parts for the domestic car makers come from different sources. When I had a Ford Contour SVT, I think the transmission was from Germany or France. When the Explorer was built here, wasn't the 4.0L V6 a German sourced engine? One of the Ford Cologne family of engines that got its start in the Ford Taunus in Europe.

Frankly, I don't see any loyalty in either direction.

But at least old Henry knew that you had to have workers that could afford to buy your product.

And as I said, Dodge moved the Caravan out of St. Louis and doesn't even build it in the US anymore. As well as moving RAM production to Mexico. I think the only possibility of getting a US built RAM is the 1500. All others are built in Mexico. Some 1500s are as well.

Can't expect people to buy American if you close your American plants.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: javacontour

Would be nice if you bought from the home team.


The home team left here. (More than once.)

Ford closed up the Hazelwood plant and no longer builds cars in St. Louis.
Chrysler closed up the Fenton plant and no longer makes trucks and minivans in St. Louis.

(And the Rams left too!)

Doesn't seem to me that they have any loyalty. Dodge/RAM trucks are built in Mexico. Why not in St Louis?

Most of my "Japanese" cars have been built in the US. Camry in Kentucky. Also Kentucky for my Sienna, IIRC. My Geo Prizm (Corolla with a Geo badge) in California. Same with my Pontiac Vibe (Toyota Matrix)

My Nissan was built in TN.

My Corolla may have been built in Canada let me check the VIN, nope, US, it's a "1" VIN.

Now my "American" Grand Marquis was built in Canada.

And I do currently have two J VIN cars. My 2012 Mazda3 and my 2017 Rav4 came from Japan.

But most of my cars have been built here in North America. Even the "Japanese" cars.


And that's why two domestic car makers abandoned their factories here?

It has to go both ways. Can't preach "Buy American" if the American carmakers shutter their factories here

Can't expect people to buy American if you close your American plants.




But some of us who quietly bought nothing but GM and Ford for 3 decades did not change the landscape …

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Most people can make the distinction between cars and toys.
I would have credited you with being able to do that, but I've been wrong before.


I have no problem making that distinction and I think I made it abundantly clear that I'm aware that these are halo cars. You however, didn't include that qualifier in the statement I replied to, which is why I've continued this little bout of banter with you. Whether you felt it was implied or not, it was not explicitly stated, and as such, those examples, despite perhaps being insignificant outliers in your mind, were fair game

Fair enough, but I don't think that anyone regards the vehicles you mentioned as serious cars.
Fast cars? Sure. Road legal? Of course. Realistic daily drivers?
Umm, no.
They're toys and not as useful as daily drivers as the cheapest 10K new car.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Most people can make the distinction between cars and toys.
I would have credited you with being able to do that, but I've been wrong before.


I have no problem making that distinction and I think I made it abundantly clear that I'm aware that these are halo cars. You however, didn't include that qualifier in the statement I replied to, which is why I've continued this little bout of banter with you. Whether you felt it was implied or not, it was not explicitly stated, and as such, those examples, despite perhaps being insignificant outliers in your mind, were fair game

Fair enough, but I don't think that anyone regards the vehicles you mentioned as serious cars.
Fast cars? Sure. Road legal? Of course. Realistic daily drivers?
Umm, no.
They're toys and not as useful as daily drivers as the cheapest 10K new car.


I would agree with you on the Ford GT, no question. I doubt anybody dailies one. However, I think Patman might disagree with you on the Corvette

There are plenty of DD'd 'vettes out there, heck I've even seen some driven in the winter! (now that's a sight to behold...).

Now are they as practical as a 4-door sedan? No, and that applies to the Corvette as well as it does the Ford GT.

 

[Kurtatron]

Originally Posted By: 4WD


South end of NAFTA


That’s a cool image you got there. I know 2 people that work for 2 different suppliers on that infographic.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Anybody talking about "world class" vehicles go to Europe and try finding a Camry or an Accord. The two best selling mid size sedans in US are pretty much nowhere to be found in other parts of the world, just like pickups. Such "world class" vehicles lol.


But Corollas, Civics, Yarises, and Fits are common enough. Also...I recall the North American Camry and Accord were US/Canada only for quite a while.


True and at least in Europe they're considered the bottom of the barrel, not world class. Hyundai is actually better regarded over there than Honda and Toyota.

Someone asked for world class vehicles and trucks were mentioned, which was dismissed because they are only really sold in North America. I simply wanted to point the major flaw in that thinking, because Japanese also produce models that are specific to NA only, so how could they be considered world class?

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: itguy08

Back in 03-05 I remember that same crummy 5 speed auto haveing issues in 4 banger Acuras. And many of those V6 slushboxes failed well before 100k.
Any yet with those issues, the vehicles were still a lot better than their domestic counterparts. Do you want to look at the Chrysler LH platform, GM's N/P90 platform, or even slightly better for d186 platform to Toyotas and Hondas of the same era.

Originally Posted By: itguy08

Yet tons of these Taurus' make it to 200k.
https://blog.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-over-200000-miles/


But many, many more dont'. Don't confuse "willingness to repair" to reliability.

Also, that is based on market share of the used market... not the percentage of the model still in service. One, it is based on "sales". Thus if you bought your accord new, put on 300,000k miles and still own it, it would not show up in the data. So if half of the 750K F150 sells are still on the road, and 99% of the 26K Honda Ridgelines and 10% of that volume was put on sale, the Ford would win and the Ridgeline would not be included.

If anything, that link suffers from external validity issues. What is measuring does not really equate with its data. It is more of a willingness to buy at 200K and for those with SUV needs (seating, storage, etc) but a limited budget, then you see those high mile sales.

If you want to talk research...

Originally Posted By: itguy08

I don't know I'd equate government abuse with how a normal person drives and maintains their vehicle. Fleet/rental cars and can only imagine the abuse they take.


Government abuse? Ha! Yeah, that might apply for my for my LE fleet and transit vehicles. For my motor pool vehicles? Not so much and I have the Telematics to prove it. About 72% of my miles are highway/interstate trips. Yep, we slog up and down I40 constantly. For example, my Explorer received notification that the driver was speeding 6mph over the speed limit for 2 minutes. When you have big brother looking over your shoulder, it solves most of those "abuse" issues. We are not Enterprise, misuse our vehicles and we come after both your money and your employment.

I can definitely say that our vehicles are better maintained than most personal vehicles. PM are done regularly, recalls are solved immediately (liability reasons), and we have the software to track this work/activity. Considering we have to transport minors regularly, that raises are "acceptable" threshold. I will grant that the amount of "waxing and detailing" is much less than you average personal vehicle (we basically "acid wash" of fleet), our money goes into the mechanicals.


Originally Posted By: itguy08
If the foreign makes were so much better you'd think the fleet management who looks to reduce cost would be buying Camries and Accords over Tauruses and Impalas.

One Honda and Toyota really do not unload or compete in the fleet sales all that much.

Two, Domestics "unload" into the Government fleet sales market. Yeah, I got those 2013 Impalas for under $19K. New. Normally, we are paying about 2/3 the standard market rate and we buy up out going models - why we have/had a lot of '13 Impalas, '07 Tauruses, 08 Uplanders, 06 Caravans, 16 Caravans. Buy 'em, cheap at the lowest cost-per-mile, and then expect to unload them at the given mileage threshold. For us, we can put 20-30K on in a year so we are constantly buying/selling

Originally Posted By: itguy08

I'm not sure how it would play out but I think you'd be surprised. If the domestic makes were so bad they wouldn't have such high Owner Loyalty


I worked consumer research before moving into my fleet roll...

It is called "trucks". One, most truck buyers don't cross-shop. So if your volume is mostly trucks (and yes, that leans domestic... even with Toyota being #1 for its Tacoma there), it helps the overall "brand". Truck buyers stay on a team. If they have a Dodge Ram 1500 and they go back to their Ram dealer and get a new Ram. They are very fixed buyers. It also helps that they do not divide up their market as much. So trading in a F150 V6 shortbed work truck for a luxury 4-door pickup or Rapter is consider "loyal", but going from a Focus to a Mustang or a Taurus is not loyal.

Most customer loyalty only measure the same model-to-model loyalty. So, if I go from my '99 Outback to a '14 Outback, it counts. But if I trade in my '09 Fit for an Accord (or even an Outback) it does not count. So my mother-in-law trading in her purchased-new Equinox for a new Buick Encore does not factor into any "loyality" scheme. Still, she is GM loyal. Also, if you buy pre-owned of the same make, then it does not count either. It is new vehicle to new vehicle sales. So by brother's habit of buying 3 year old Honda Accordss, running them to 250K and then buying a off-leased preowned Accord does not reflect any loyalty... and he is about as Honda-bro as you can get.

 

[gofast182]

I shake my head every time I check this ill-conceived thread. As the OP tries to identify one set of "brainwashed" people, a whole other set comes to agree.

 

[Smokescreen]

It is a really useless thread, I agree.

I too shake my head when I see this thread still has active postings, knowing that I have to get into my Corolla with over 221,000 trouble free miles (translation: zero repairs performed since new) on it each day. I guess it really is an issue of being brainwashed to keep driving a ridiculously reliable vehicle to the point of that even pondering upon its reliability brings extreme boredom.

Who wants that kind of life...I mean what is wrong with me ??

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
It is a really useless thread, I agree.

I too shake my head when I see this thread still has active postings, knowing that I have to get into my Corolla with over 221,000 trouble free miles (translation: zero repairs performed since new) on it each day. I guess it really is an issue of being brainwashed to keep driving a ridiculously reliable vehicle to the point of that even pondering upon its reliability brings extreme boredom.

Who wants that kind of life...I mean what is wrong with me ??

 

[Corollaman]

It is a really useless thread, I agree.

I too shake my head when I see this thread still has active postings, knowing that I have to get into my Corolla with over 221,000 trouble free miles (translation: zero repairs performed since new) on it each day. I guess it really is an issue of being brainwashed to keep driving a ridiculously reliable vehicle to the point of that even pondering upon its reliability brings extreme boredom.

Who wants that kind of life...I mean what is wrong with me ??

I have to agree my 2012 Corolla has had 56,000 boring trouble free miles. If only my other cars were as boring.

 

[StevieC]

Corollaman is it boring Gold colour?

 

[fdcg27]

Patman has also written in another thread that he doesn't DDs his current 'vette and has no intention of doing so with the new one he has on order.
Now, this thread has had legs way beyond what I would have anticipated and has drifted around into territory I hadn't really thought it would, although in fairness I rose to some of the bait and so promoted some of the drift.
I still think that a used Fusion is a smarter buy than any similar used Camry or Accord, since the Ford would be thousands of dollars cheaper and is still a pretty good car, but other than that, this thread should now be allowed to die.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Patman has also written in another thread that he doesn't DDs his current 'vette and has no intention of doing so with the new one he has on order.


My mistake then, I thought he DD'd them in the summer months.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Now, this thread has had legs way beyond what I would have anticipated and has drifted around into territory I hadn't really thought it would, although in fairness I rose to some of the bait and so promoted some of the drift.
I still think that a used Fusion is a smarter buy than any similar used Camry or Accord, since the Ford would be thousands of dollars cheaper and is still a pretty good car, but other than that, this thread should now be allowed to die.


I'll gladly oblige that and make this my last post here

 

[Corollaman]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Corollaman is it boring Gold colour?

It's a dark blue, kind like the 4 or 5 you'll see driving around on any given day. It's an appliance in almost every way, but a reliable appliance. It's one of those cars you'll miss when it's gone because it never gave you any trouble.

 

[StevieC]

Could be worse could be a 90's Taurus. The official symbol for having given up on life.

Nothing wrong with a "Blue" Corolla!