Very Interesting.. particulaly the side bar about friction modifiers in fuels.
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/fuel_economy/
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/fuel_economy/
fuel economy / gasoline article
- Thread starter novadude
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The quote that I found very interesting was:
[They show that the average fuel economy of RFG is 2 percent to 3 percent lower.]
The same people that want us to improve fuel economy are the same ones demanding the use of this reformulated fuel. So the avearge car today is being pentalized by 1/2 mpg city and 3/4 mpg highway.
[They show that the average fuel economy of RFG is 2 percent to 3 percent lower.]
The same people that want us to improve fuel economy are the same ones demanding the use of this reformulated fuel. So the avearge car today is being pentalized by 1/2 mpg city and 3/4 mpg highway.
A good share of the push for RFG comes from lobbyists for the major industrial farms such as Archer Daniels Midland Company. They need a market for their corn so we get higher priced lower energy content gasoline.
Yeah... the only positive thing is: 10% Ethanol=10% less gas from middle east.
Well 8% when you factor in mpg loss...
[ January 16, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
Well 8% when you factor in mpg loss...
[ January 16, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
A big hunk of that 8% also vanishes when you consider the amount of fuel and petroleum based chemicals to produce and transport the corn and to distill the corn mash.quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Yeah... the only positive thing is: 10% Ethanol=10% less gas from middle east.
Well 8% when you factor in mpg loss...
Actually RFG and RFGII gasolines were not pushed by the "big corporate farmers". Until the last year or two, there was exactly one market using RFG that used ethanol (Chicago/Milwaukee). Everyone else was using MTBE. Not exactly a big benefit then (though with phase outs of MTBE in many areas, it is more of a beni.).
Keep things straight:
There is conventional gasoline -plain old hydrocarboin petro based gasoline.
Oxygenated gasoline - Introduced in the early 90's to combat Carbon Monoxide problems in many areas. Accomplished using MTBE in most places, Ethanol in the midwest.
RFG was introduced after the oxy blends. The goal of RFG fuels in to reduce ozone pollution. The original RFG gasolines were not required to be oxygenated unless the area was in non-attainment for Carbon Monoxide.
RFG II was phased in in the last few years to reduce ozone pollution further. Only because federal law does it have to be oxygenated. This gasoline could be made to reduce ozone pollution without the use of oxygenates. In fact, it would be easier to make since one of the main problems is how easily ethanol evaporates compared to gasoline, and this evaportion is a source of ozone pollution. California attempted to do this after phasing out MTBE, but was overruled by the Feds.
Keep things straight:
There is conventional gasoline -plain old hydrocarboin petro based gasoline.
Oxygenated gasoline - Introduced in the early 90's to combat Carbon Monoxide problems in many areas. Accomplished using MTBE in most places, Ethanol in the midwest.
RFG was introduced after the oxy blends. The goal of RFG fuels in to reduce ozone pollution. The original RFG gasolines were not required to be oxygenated unless the area was in non-attainment for Carbon Monoxide.
RFG II was phased in in the last few years to reduce ozone pollution further. Only because federal law does it have to be oxygenated. This gasoline could be made to reduce ozone pollution without the use of oxygenates. In fact, it would be easier to make since one of the main problems is how easily ethanol evaporates compared to gasoline, and this evaportion is a source of ozone pollution. California attempted to do this after phasing out MTBE, but was overruled by the Feds.
Right, and the feds over ruled Californi meeting standards without using MTBR -OR- Ethonal because????
Being in the SE Wisconsin "Non-Attainment" area, some of it seems like a crock. Ethanol takes more energy to make than it creates.
Pollution from many other places blows up here ("weather") and Lake Michigan is sort of like an airdam, it stops here and sits.
However, non-RFG fuel is available with a half-hour freeway drive. 2-stroke engines need the non-RFG to cool them down, using RFG will cause melted pistons. Some vehicles in the family seemed to do better on RFG, those with carburators. I haven't noticed much price difference, in the city they have competition on price. In the counrty, if regular gas is cheaper, it sells for the same price as in the city, and the gas stations just over the line are new, fancy and big.
MBTE was found to pollute groundwater. And the E is for Ether, used long ago in the medical field to knock people out for surgery, etc. People were getting sick from it.
Pollution from many other places blows up here ("weather") and Lake Michigan is sort of like an airdam, it stops here and sits.
However, non-RFG fuel is available with a half-hour freeway drive. 2-stroke engines need the non-RFG to cool them down, using RFG will cause melted pistons. Some vehicles in the family seemed to do better on RFG, those with carburators. I haven't noticed much price difference, in the city they have competition on price. In the counrty, if regular gas is cheaper, it sells for the same price as in the city, and the gas stations just over the line are new, fancy and big.
MBTE was found to pollute groundwater. And the E is for Ether, used long ago in the medical field to knock people out for surgery, etc. People were getting sick from it.
What you say about MTBE and ground water is true. It more readily travels through the water table than the BTX (benzene, toluene, xylene)and strait-chain mixtures that are normally found in gasoline.
Hoewever, your comment about ether is a but inaccurate. An ether is just a class of molecules that have carbons bonded to oxygen that is then inturn bonded to another carbon:
-C-O-C-
other carbons and hydrogens can be bonded to those carbons, and the molecule is still an ether.
The specific ether you are talking about is possibly dimethyl ether, which is a gas at room temperature.
MTBE is a differnt ether: methyl tert-butyl ether........
Just like many of the alchols are different: for example, you wouldn't want to confuse ethanol with methanol....both are alchohols but have different outcomes in your body.......
Still MTBE doesn't seem to play nice.....
Oh, where to start...
You may want to find a more up to date article to reference. It references the current price of oil as $18 a barrel. Last I checked, oil was pushing $35 a barrel.
California was not allowed to produce a RFG gasoline without ethanol because ethanol controls Carbon Monoxide, which is another pollutant. The RFG portion is formulated against Ozone pollution.
California has problems with both - thus the requirement to use ethanol. RFG formulated fuel alone did not deal with the CO issues.
Ethanol is proven to reduce Carbon Monoxide emissions, though the effect is less with late model cars. Multiple studies show this benefit. The same benefits are realized from MTBE usage.
As an example, the Twin Cities was a non-attainment area for Carbon Monoxide. The ethanol blended gasolines were phased in beginning around 1991-1992. Emissions testing was also performed on vehicles. Within five years, the CO reductions were dramatic enough that emissions testing was ended shortly thereafter, though the use of ethanol blended fuels continues.
The story about ethanol requiring more energy to produce is also funny. Do you think that gasoline production doesn't require energy? Next time you go past one, look at all the electrical power lines that feed into a refinery. I can guarentee you they aren't all carrying electricity out!
You may want to find a more up to date article to reference. It references the current price of oil as $18 a barrel. Last I checked, oil was pushing $35 a barrel.
California was not allowed to produce a RFG gasoline without ethanol because ethanol controls Carbon Monoxide, which is another pollutant. The RFG portion is formulated against Ozone pollution.
California has problems with both - thus the requirement to use ethanol. RFG formulated fuel alone did not deal with the CO issues.
Ethanol is proven to reduce Carbon Monoxide emissions, though the effect is less with late model cars. Multiple studies show this benefit. The same benefits are realized from MTBE usage.
As an example, the Twin Cities was a non-attainment area for Carbon Monoxide. The ethanol blended gasolines were phased in beginning around 1991-1992. Emissions testing was also performed on vehicles. Within five years, the CO reductions were dramatic enough that emissions testing was ended shortly thereafter, though the use of ethanol blended fuels continues.
The story about ethanol requiring more energy to produce is also funny. Do you think that gasoline production doesn't require energy? Next time you go past one, look at all the electrical power lines that feed into a refinery. I can guarentee you they aren't all carrying electricity out!
We still have emissions testing around here, at least for '95 and older. OBD-II, '96 and up, gets a code scan. No codes, you pass.
When the MBTE stuff first came out around here, about '94-95, lots of people were getting sick, headaches, etc. Switch to ethanol, much less sick people.
Maybe it takes more energy to make ethanol? Or less BTUs in the finished product? It's some sort of spin by somebody, as water fueled vehicles aren't out yet
When the MBTE stuff first came out around here, about '94-95, lots of people were getting sick, headaches, etc. Switch to ethanol, much less sick people.
Maybe it takes more energy to make ethanol? Or less BTUs in the finished product? It's some sort of spin by somebody, as water fueled vehicles aren't out yet
In the 70's with the "oil embargo," the local Texaco sold Gasohol (10% ethanol - printed right on the pump!!). My Jeep ran great on the stuff. When I replaced a head gasket, I had a machine shop work the valves. The old barker at the machine shop said the head and valve stems were in great condition (110K on the engine??!!)and immediately said I was using the Gasohol.
Now, I buy gasoline that is probably "gasohol" (10% alcohols or other "oxygenated" fuels), that's not labelled gasohol. But it doesn't smell as good. Bring back the original gasohol, and yea, the smell too. Maybe that was the 10% benzene still used. Bring back that too, the Jeep ran great!!
Now, I buy gasoline that is probably "gasohol" (10% alcohols or other "oxygenated" fuels), that's not labelled gasohol. But it doesn't smell as good. Bring back the original gasohol, and yea, the smell too. Maybe that was the 10% benzene still used. Bring back that too, the Jeep ran great!!
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