Different specs for different markets

[nap]

I’d like to hear about the differences between Canadian models vs US vs Mexico, other than the obvious metric / imperial versions of gauges and a few amenities such as heated steering wheels, sometimes available for the Canadian market only.

Tell me about something of consequence to oil choice, such as US engines having Texas sized bearing clearances.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: nap
I’d like to hear about the differences between Canadian models vs US vs Mexico, other than the obvious metric / imperial versions of gauges and a few amenities such as heated steering wheels, sometimes available for the Canadian market only.

Tell me about something of consequence to oil choice, such as US engines having Texas sized bearing clearances.


Why would they retool the machining for different markets? That would be extremely expensive and impractical.
The blocks and internals are assembled in mass. Other add on items like fuel mapping and timing effecting overall power out put, fuel economy and emissions can be tuned later as a bolt on for the specified vehicle.. Emissions equipment is added in concert with the tune to get the desired approved results.
That’s why one version of an engine can have more power out put in a certain model than the other. Nothing is different internally, but the tuning and controlls is different.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Originally Posted By: nap
I’d like to hear about the differences between Canadian models vs US vs Mexico, other than the obvious metric / imperial versions of gauges and a few amenities such as heated steering wheels, sometimes available for the Canadian market only.

Tell me about something of consequence to oil choice, such as US engines having Texas sized bearing clearances.


Yeah, but I don't think in general people are talking about NAFTA countries here...but instances where posters pull out the Russian or Bolivian owners manuals as "proof" that you should use 10w-40 in something that's spec'd for 0w-20 in the U.S....that's an obvious exaggeration, but you get the point. If they spec 10w-40 or 15w-40 because the gas has 900 ppm of sulphur, it's not apples to apples. The point was being more concerned about how and if they differ first than attributing everything to CAFE even when it doesn't have anything to do with CAFE.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: nap
I’d like to hear about the differences between Canadian models vs US vs Mexico, other than the obvious metric / imperial versions of gauges and a few amenities such as heated steering wheels, sometimes available for the Canadian market only.

Tell me about something of consequence to oil choice, such as US engines having Texas sized bearing clearances.


Why would they retool the machining for different markets? That would be extremely expensive and impractical.
The blocks and internals are assembled in mass. Other add on items like fuel mapping and timing effecting overall power out put, fuel economy and emissions can be tuned later as a bolt on for the specified vehicle.. Emissions equipment is added in concert with the tune to get the desired approved results.
That’s why one version of an engine can have more power out put in a certain model than the other. Nothing is different internally, but the tuning and controlls is different.




Many major auto manufactures have multiple engine manufacturing facilities close to the local markets they serve. It's not a matter of retooling but a matter of producing engine close to plants that assemble the final car and there can be differences. Subaru off the top of my head- the 2.0T produced for Japan is different than the 2.0 produced for NA. Honda/Toyota/etc build many of the engines destine for NA in NA. You can look up the location of various auto manufactures engine production plants and it can be a staggering number - all over Asia, the middle east, Europe, North America, South America, Africa, etc
Ford Engine Production

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: nap
I’d like to hear about the differences between Canadian models vs US vs Mexico, other than the obvious metric / imperial versions of gauges and a few amenities such as heated steering wheels, sometimes available for the Canadian market only.

Tell me about something of consequence to oil choice, such as US engines having Texas sized bearing clearances.


Yeah, but I don't think in general people are talking about NAFTA countries here...but instances where posters pull out the Russian or Bolivian owners manuals as "proof" that you should use 10w-40 in something that's spec'd for 0w-20 in the U.S....that's an obvious exaggeration, but you get the point. If they spec 10w-40 or 15w-40 because the gas has 900 ppm of sulphur, it's not apples to apples. The point was being more concerned about how and if they differ first than attributing everything to CAFE even when it doesn't have anything to do with CAFE.

Exactly.

 

[nap]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky

Yeah, but I don't think in general people are talking about NAFTA countries here...but instances where posters pull out the Russian or Bolivian owners manuals as "proof" that you should use 10w-40 in something that's spec'd for 0w-20 in the U.S.


Is it a more credible idea to you that the same 0W20 in the same engine is optimal in all driving conditions and all climates from Alaska to Mexic?

Also, why stretch the argument across continents? Let's have a look at this one:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4764845/1

would you argue that a special engine for the Puerto Rico market was made / imported?

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky

Yeah, but I don't think in general people are talking about NAFTA countries here...but instances where posters pull out the Russian or Bolivian owners manuals as "proof" that you should use 10w-40 in something that's spec'd for 0w-20 in the U.S.


Is it a more credible idea to you that the same 0W20 in the same engine is optimal in all driving conditions and all climates from Alaska to Mexic?

Also, why stretch the argument across continents? Let's have a look at this one:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4764845/1

would you argue that a special engine for the Puerto Rico market was made / imported?


I stretch the argument across continents because that's exactly what the "CAFE-only" proponents do. It's not a matter of credibility as much as recognizing any differences that exist. Citing something that is CAFE-oriented like 0w-20 versus claiming, always and only, that these differences can ONLY be CAFE-based, as has been done here, may not be correct.

My point has less to do with what oil grade is "credible" for what climate, etc. as understanding any differences first before telling me I should be using 10w-40 because that's what the Bolivian owners manual says I should use and if we didn't have CAFE that's what we'd be using.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky

Yeah, but I don't think in general people are talking about NAFTA countries here...but instances where posters pull out the Russian or Bolivian owners manuals as "proof" that you should use 10w-40 in something that's spec'd for 0w-20 in the U.S.


Is it a more credible idea to you that the same 0W20 in the same engine is optimal in all driving conditions and all climates from Alaska to Mexic?

Also, why stretch the argument across continents? Let's have a look at this one:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4764845/1

would you argue that a special engine for the Puerto Rico market was made / imported?




I would venture to say that with normal city and highway driving, a 0w20 oil would run just fine in Alaska as it would in Mexico. The equation changes if you are going to tow or four wheel off road where the engine load equation changes.

The availability of 0w20 in places like Bolivia for example may be very limited or non existent. Then the manufacturer has to consider what is available. Driving in the streets of La Paz may be fine for 0w20 but once outside the city the road conditions are likely very different.

 

[PimTac]

These thin vs thick threads depend a lot on perception. Let me throw this analogy out there.

In SE Asia I know of someone who was driving a van with new tires. These were tubeless which were the first of this type this driver had owned. He got a flat early on and went to his tire shop buddy. The tire guy put a boot in the tire and then put tubes in all four tires. Yes this can be done. The driver was very happy now that he had tires with tubes. That was what he was used to in his driving history.

Now if you tried that same scenario in the US you would be laughed at. In the end though, did the driver really accomplish anything? In his mind he did.

 

[nap]

PimTac, may I have you on record stating that choosing a different lubrication point on the Stribeck curve accomplishes nothing?

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: nap
PimTac, may I have you on record stating that choosing a different lubrication point on the Stribeck curve accomplishes nothing?



I’m not an engineer. I’m just saying that a modern vehicle running 0w20 could run from Fairbanks AK to Mexico City traveling paved highways all the way and do it with no issues. Today’s engines cruise along around 2000rpm or less. That same vehicle could make that trip countless times

 

[ZeeOSix]

Ford specs 5W20 for the 5.0L Mustang (2015+) in the US, but specs 5W30 for the same Mustang in Australia. That's right out of the owner's manual. There's no difference in the engines. Just no CAFE in Australia.

 

[d00df00d]

So my car is actually a good example of this.

In the US, Mazda insists on a conventional ILSAC-rated 5W-20 and nothing else. They prohibit synthetics and semi-synthetics in the strongest terms.

In Europe, they spec ACEA A5, and have strongly recommended their own Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 -- which must be at least semi-synthetic. They also call for longer OCIs.

In Japan, it's API/ILSAC again -- but they'll often use 0W-20 synthetics, and they market their own Mazda-branded RX-8 specific 0W-30 full synthetic (PAO/ester). Various well-respected rotary tuners also market fully synthetic xW-30 and xW-40 oils specifically for rotary engines.

Australia gets to use 5W-30, but gets the same breathless prohibition of synthetic oils that the US does.

Mazda doesn't recommend ILSAC 5W-20 in Europe or ACEA A5 5W-30 in the US, even though oils like those are easily available in either market. Dexelia Ultra isn't available in the US. Their RX-8 specific 0W-30 isn't available outside of some regions in Asia.

Which one is the "real" spec?

If CAFE is the only reason for ILSAC 5W-20 in the US, why don't Europe's own fuel economy requirements, emissions requirements, and hideous fuel taxes impose a similar constraint? What's to say the European spec is better anyway? Maybe the US spec is the "real" one, and the only reason they spec a heavier ACEA A5 oil in Europe is to cope with the longer OCIs. But then why would Mazda's own tailor-made RX-8 oil be a 0W-30? For that matter, why don't they ever export that oil to Europe or the US? And why is it fully synthetic when they insist you can't even use a semi-syn in most other markets?

No one but Mazda really knows why they are doing it this way. But if you assume there is a "real" spec that one of those markets is closest to, you have to make up some crazy convoluted just-so stories to answer all the questions that come up.

If you imagine it's due to subtle differences in tune and/or significant differences in fuel composition, that's not much easier to substantiate -- but it's based on facts that are well-known and endorsed by people in the relevant industries, and it's FAR less vulnerable to Occam's Razor than all the rationalization you'd have to do otherwise.

 

[JAG]

Based on that, it sounds like what could result from different groups of people, largely or completely independently, deciding what to specify in the owners manuals for different countries.

 

[nap]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: nap
PimTac, may I have you on record stating that choosing a different lubrication point on the Stribeck curve accomplishes nothing?



I’m not an engineer. I’m just saying that a modern vehicle running 0w20 could run from Fairbanks AK to Mexico City traveling paved highways all the way and do it with no issues. Today’s engines cruise along around 2000rpm or less. That same vehicle could make that trip countless times


You're trying to evade the question again. It's not about commuting from Fairbanks to Mexico city (a very unlikely usage scenario, you must have good imagination). It's about operating the same engine for 10 years in Fairbanks vs. Mexico City.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: nap
You're trying to evade the question again. It's not about commuting from Fairbanks to Mexico city (a very unlikely usage scenario, you must have good imagination). It's about operating the same engine for 10 years in Fairbanks vs. Mexico City.

Sure, but do you have data on that?

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: nap
PimTac, may I have you on record stating that choosing a different lubrication point on the Stribeck curve accomplishes nothing?



I’m not an engineer. I’m just saying that a modern vehicle running 0w20 could run from Fairbanks AK to Mexico City traveling paved highways all the way and do it with no issues. Today’s engines cruise along around 2000rpm or less. That same vehicle could make that trip countless times


You're trying to evade the question again. It's not about commuting from Fairbanks to Mexico city (a very unlikely usage scenario, you must have good imagination). It's about operating the same engine for 10 years in Fairbanks vs. Mexico City.



Okay, let’s simplify things. Two vehicles, both Have the same engine which specs for 0w20. One in Fairbanks, the other in Mexico City. Both vehicles have the same driving routine with a mix of city and highway driving.

Both vehicles will perform just fine. Of course we can all make choices. Run what you like.

 

[nap]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: nap
You're trying to evade the question again. It's not about commuting from Fairbanks to Mexico city (a very unlikely usage scenario, you must have good imagination). It's about operating the same engine for 10 years in Fairbanks vs. Mexico City.

Sure, but do you have data on that?


Have you read the thread? The “data” under question, as per the thread’s title, has already been produced as a manual exclusively recommending 0W20 for all climates from Alaska to Texas, except Puerto Rico.

Explain that in a credible fashion and we can conclude the thread.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Based on that, it sounds like what could result from different groups of people, largely or completely independently, deciding what to specify in the owners manuals for different countries.

Hah, true!

Don't think that's the case here as Mazda is so small, and the rotary team is tiny. But yeah, it does look that way.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: nap
Have you read the thread? The “data” under question, as per the thread’s title, has already been produced as a manual exclusively recommending 0W20 for all climates from Alaska to Texas, except Puerto Rico.

Explain that in a credible fashion and we can conclude the thread.

The credible explanation would be that the engine doesn't produce oil temps too high for a 0W-20 to maintain MOFT with expected usage, even in the hottest North American climates. That's really not unusual these days.