Conclusions on Ecoboost Engine Oil - Gas Turbo Direct Injection

[OVERKILL]

Where are these “predicted” charts from? Just wondering, because I’ve never really seen any UOA data here that proves fuel % comes down. There are plenty of members who say they’ve taken their vehicle for long highway drives once per week or even for an hour or so just before an oil change, and yet there’s no appreciable difference in fuel compared to OCIs on those same vehicles when the oil was drained cold. They are even shocked at their high dilution because they thought the “common knowledge” that a long highway drive would boil off fuel, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with the limited control of samples available here.

Yes, and the Honda examples that were "making oil" to the point that the engines were stalling due to being severely over-filled.

 

[MrStamper]

2013 Ford Focus...130K/11 years....5W20...most reliable lowest cost to own I've ever had. Yes...built Ford Tough.

Manual transmission?

 

[Bill7]

I have tested a lot of different API SP oils from the Walmart shelf and came to the conclusion that any API SP oil will have excellent iron wear results. Much better iron wear results then what I saw in API SN and API SN+ oils. However, the constant issue seemed to be fuel dilution and how will that effect the detergents in the oil to prevent high mileage sludge.

So I have picked Quaker State Euro 5W40 API SP as the oil for my Ecoboost engine. Its 20% thicker than typical 5W30s and contains a lot more detergent than typical 5W30 oils. When I look at this oil I feel like its a heavier duty oil then your typical 5W30.

One thing I was reading on the Castrol website was that motor oil was never designed for gasoline as an additive to the oil. However, these Euro style oils are designed for the turbo engines which have been used for a long time in Europe. So while your typical Pennzoil or Mobil 1 5W30 was not designed for gasoline as an additive this Euro oil was actually designed with fuel dilution (gas in the oil) in mind.
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This oil might be one of the best oils at any price, while also being one of the cheapest oils you can buy. I really like its additive package: High levels of anti-wear additives of phosphorous and zinc, and high levels of detergents: Calcium. If I didn't already have such a big oil stache which will last me 3 years, I would be buying this oil.

 

[twX]

Where are these “predicted” charts from? Just wondering, because I’ve never really seen any UOA data here that proves fuel % comes down.

The first chart is from a model derived from testing data. The study is SAE 2000-01-2838.

The second shows direct measurements from an engine test, from SAE 2002-01-1647. The engine was operated with 40 C oil and coolant temperatures for 10 hours, then at 80 C for the next 10 hours.

Here's an example of dilution going down on a UOA for a TGDI Subaru. Dilution was 3.5% at 4,000 miles, and 2.7% at 8,000 miles, on the same oil fill. The viscosity increased a bit as well, which makes measurement error seem less likely. Looking at the other two samples as well, there's no obvious correlation between dilution and mileage. I haven't noticed much of a correlation from other UOAs either.

here are plenty of members who say they’ve taken their vehicle for long highway drives once per week or even for an hour or so just before an oil change, and yet there’s no appreciable difference in fuel compared to OCIs on those same vehicles when the oil was drained cold.

The second chart I posted shows dilution dropping only modestly every 2 hours once the dilution level isn't very high. On a one hour drive, dilution would initally go up, then maybe only start dropping below the initial dilution level after 30 minutes or so, so you'd expect the drop in dilution to be pretty small.

Did you mean they took two samples of the same oil fill, one before the drive and one after? In that case I'd expect the difference to at least be measurable.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

If I didn't already have such a big oil stache which will last me 3 years, I would be buying this oil.

Buying HPL? Sell your stash on Craigslist. You’ll come out ahead in the long run, and your vehicle will reap the rewards. @wwillson is well over 50k miles on ~$110 worth of HPL oil, something that would cost you a minimum of $320 with 3k OCIs and WM shelf stock; yet his 20k+ UOAs are as good or better than a lot of the much shorter OCIs on other oils.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Where are these “predicted” charts from? Just wondering, because I’ve never really seen any UOA data here that proves fuel % comes down. There are plenty of members who say they’ve taken their vehicle for long highway drives once per week or even for an hour or so just before an oil change, and yet there’s no appreciable difference in fuel compared to OCIs on those same vehicles when the oil was drained cold. They are even shocked at their high dilution because they thought the “common knowledge” that a long highway drive would boil off fuel, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with the limited control of samples available here.

EXACTLY. For the first 1K miles, I drove from Dallas to Colorado Springs to Cheyenne and back to Colorado Springs starting with 6 miles on the vehicle (aka brand new) and that should have been more than enough time at operating temperature to burn off the fuel--it was 100% highway miles at speeds of 70+.

DI sprays directly into the cylinder and unburned fuel is washed down the cylinder walls and into the oil. While **some** fuel may burn off via operating temperatures over time, I would opine that it cannot burn more than is being introduced into the engine and therefore, it continues to rise throughout the oil change interval.

The other concern is the oil was out of grade in only 1K miles (from 11.0 cSt to 8.9 cSt @ 100°C or a 19.1% reduction), what would that have been at 5K or 7.5K miles?

I switched to M1 ESP which has a thicker cSt @ 100°C than many off the shelf oils and comparably it dropped from 12.2 cSt to 10.9 cSt @ 100°C or a 10.7% reduction in 1K miles with about the same amount of dilution (2.5% versus 2.4%) so **theoretically** it had half the viscosity reduction that Motorcraft did.

I plan to continue to UOA for a while to learn how fuel dilution manifests itself in my 2.7L.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

EXACTLY. For the first 1K miles, I drove from Dallas to Colorado Springs to Cheyenne and back to Colorado Springs starting with 6 miles on the vehicle (aka brand new) and that should have been more than enough time at operating temperature to burn off the fuel--it was 100% highway miles at speeds of 70+.

DI sprays directly into the cylinder and unburned fuel is washed down the cylinder walls and into the oil. While **some** fuel may burn off via operating temperatures over time, I would opine that it cannot burn more than is being introduced into the engine and therefore, it continues to rise throughout the oil change interval.

The other concern is the oil was out of grade in only 1K miles (from 11.0 cSt to 8.9 cSt @ 100°C or a 19.1% reduction), what would that have been at 5K or 7.5K miles?

I switched to M1 ESP which has a thicker cSt @ 100°C than many off the shelf oils and comparably it dropped from 12.2 cSt to 10.9 cSt @ 100°C or a 10.7% reduction in 1K miles with about the same amount of dilution (2.5% versus 2.4%) so **theoretically** it had half the viscosity reduction that Motorcraft did.

I plan to continue to UOA for a while to learn how fuel dilution manifests itself in my 2.7L.

The thing I wonder about, and we’d need one of the rezident tribologists to answer, is are some of the lesser VIIs physically destroyed by fuel dilution over time? We know that gasoline in oil is a simple dilution on its face, but like you show above, one oil lost 20% viscosity and another 10%. Is this due to the VII amount/type, since it’s unlikely that other factors caused fuel % to double on that one run? @Foxtrot08 any valuable insight on this?

 

[loneryder]

It was two separate 1,000 mile OCIs, not the continuation of the first 1,000 mile OCI.

I would love to know how fuel dilution doesn't continue to rise over the term of an OCI, given that nothing happens during the course of the OCI to reduce it. Both of the 1,000 mi runs were on the highway where the least amount of dilution should occur.

My next UOA which is a separate 3000 mile run will give some insight into that.

Wouldn't the pcv system take some of it out?

 

[loneryder]

EXACTLY. For the first 1K miles, I drove from Dallas to Colorado Springs to Cheyenne and back to Colorado Springs starting with 6 miles on the vehicle (aka brand new) and that should have been more than enough time at operating temperature to burn off the fuel--it was 100% highway miles at speeds of 70+.

DI sprays directly into the cylinder and unburned fuel is washed down the cylinder walls and into the oil. While **some** fuel may burn off via operating temperatures over time, I would opine that it cannot burn more than is being introduced into the engine and therefore, it continues to rise throughout the oil change interval.

The other concern is the oil was out of grade in only 1K miles (from 11.0 cSt to 8.9 cSt @ 100°C or a 19.1% reduction), what would that have been at 5K or 7.5K miles?

I switched to M1 ESP which has a thicker cSt @ 100°C than many off the shelf oils and comparably it dropped from 12.2 cSt to 10.9 cSt @ 100°C or a 10.7% reduction in 1K miles with about the same amount of dilution (2.5% versus 2.4%) so **theoretically** it had half the viscosity reduction that Motorcraft did.

I plan to continue to UOA for a while to learn how fuel dilution manifests itself in my 2.7L.

If the DI system allows a more precise volume of fuel to be injected and the most precise time, why is there excess fuel washing down the cylinder walls?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Wouldn't the pcv system take some of it out?

Nope, see my thread on catch can trappings. While HPL didn’t test the catch can trappings for fuel, the ethanol snot and mainly add pack of the oil was all that showed up in the UOA.

 

[CarbonSteel]

If the DI system allows a more precise volume of fuel to be injected and the most precise time, why is there excess fuel washing down the cylinder walls?

Last I checked, that's the nature of the beast and by design with DI systems. Some OEMs have better designs than others but in the end, you are spraying gasoline directly into the cylinder and not all of it is burned in the combustion cycle.

Case in point, why do MPI systems not suffer as much it from fuel dilution as DI systems do if DI systems are so much more precise?

 

[CarbonSteel]

Nope, see my thread on catch can trappings. While HPL didn’t test the catch can trappings for fuel, the ethanol snot and mainly add pack of the oil was all that showed up in the UOA.

Yeah, not sure. However, in the case of the some of the EcoBoost engines, Ford Performance offers an aftermarket catch can. I may try it.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Yeah, not sure. However, in the case of the some of the EcoBoost engines, Ford Performance offers an aftermarket catch can. I may try it.

JLT is the brand I went with. About 1oz per 7-8k in summer, about 2.5oz every 3k after temps get below 50F. It’s also “pure” black oil in hot months, and milky ethanol snot once condensation begins.

 

[4WD]

Buying HPL? Sell your stash on Craigslist. You’ll come out ahead in the long run, and your vehicle will reap the rewards. @wwillson is well over 50k miles on ~$110 worth of HPL oil, something that would cost you a minimum of $320 with 3k OCIs and WM shelf stock; yet his 20k+ UOAs are as good or better than a lot of the much shorter OCIs on other oils.

You got that from post #83 ?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

You got that from post #83 ?

Partially in jest, yes. I’m selling/giving my stash away now that I’ve personally experienced the performance, results, and customer service of HPL.

 

[TiGeo]

Manual transmission?

Yes.

 

[CarbonSteel]

JLT is the brand I went with. About 1oz per 7-8k in summer, about 2.5oz every 3k after temps get below 50F. It’s also “pure” black oil in hot months, and milky ethanol snot once condensation begins.

The Ford design is a dual catch can--one for each bank of cylinders. It's kind of pricey but I do get a discount for government ID so still pondering.

 

[loneryder]

Last I checked, that's the nature of the beast and by design with DI systems. Some OEMs have better designs than others but in the end, you are spraying gasoline directly into the cylinder and not all of it is burned in the combustion cycle.

Case in point, why do MPI systems not suffer as much it from fuel dilution as DI systems do if DI systems are so much more precise?

DI sprays a fine mist of gasoline through more than one nozzle on each injector. A much finer and more controlled mis than MPI. Hard for me to see gas washing down cylinder walls.

 

[CarbonSteel]

DI sprays a fine mist of gasoline through more than one nozzle on each injector. A much finer and more controlled mis than MPI. Hard for me to see gas washing down cylinder walls.

We are not talking about gasoline running down the cylinders. However, we are talking about gasoline being injected directly into the cylinder versus through the intake ports and intake valves.

How do you explain fuel dilution in DI engines versus MPI? Search around there is more than enough information these days about the consequences of DI and fuel dilution in the oil.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

When it comes to direct injected vehicles follow a severe use oci schedule, its that simple don't need no spreadsheet reports and analytical data too much over thinking. General severe use oil change looks like this...