Amsoil base stocks not what they used to be?

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Originally Posted By: S_Walmer
I am an amsoil preferred customer. I will use their signature series oil as it's a group 4 PAO. However I find the XL and OE series a step in the wrong direction, as it it is a group 3 (they comfirmed this in their newsletter). I can see amsoil's position to capture more of the market share. But I don't agree with it. I don't believe in lowering their standards to meet a price point. Amsoil had an excellent reputation in the past (Still good today) ,and all of their other products are excellent.I hope they don't become the new CASTROL or XOM.I can see little benefit in using XL or OE VS store bought oils. MY .02


IMO judging a product by basestock is false economy. There is some sort of value proposition that people think they are meeting with some other group, but for all practical purposes brings nothi g to the table but equivalent performance and higher cost.

Then there are additives which aren't cheap. I feel some would prefer their precious pao with a junk add pack versus a properly balanced additive and basestock formulation.

Too many are too wrapped around pao as the answer to their oil needs. It's good stuff, and IMO some company would have great competitive advantage by como g out and saying "we formulate with x % PAO and y% POE". But that's not how it's done, and even if it were, it would t make the oil inherently better for most applications.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
And it's what the wisest people on this site say. "At the end of the day, the type of base stock used to formulate the oil is inconsequential; the product’s performance is what matters."

+1

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

IMO judging a product by basestock is false economy. There is some sort of value proposition that people think they are meeting with some other group, but for all practical purposes brings nothing to the table but equivalent performance and higher cost.

Then there are additives which aren't cheap. I feel some would prefer their precious pao with a junk add pack versus a properly balanced additive and basestock formulation.

Too many are too wrapped around pao as the answer to their oil needs. It's good stuff, and IMO some company would have great competitive advantage by como g out and saying "we formulate with x % PAO and y% POE". But that's not how it's done, and even if it were, it would t make the oil inherently better for most applications.

+1

-Dennis
 
Quote:
IMO judging a product by basestock is false economy. There is some sort of value proposition that people think they are meeting with some other group, but for all practical purposes brings nothing to the table but equivalent performance and higher cost.

Then there are additives which aren't cheap. I feel some would prefer their precious pao with a junk add pack versus a properly balanced additive and basestock formulation.

Too many are too wrapped around pao as the answer to their oil needs. It's good stuff, and IMO some company would have great competitive advantage by como g out and saying "we formulate with x % PAO and y% POE". But that's not how it's done, and even if it were, it would t make the oil inherently better for most applications.


IMHO the base stocks are the "foundation" on which everything else is built upon. It would seem to me that it takes that, along with a superior ad pack to be a superior lubricant. It's the "left had washes the right philosophy". What got me was their wording on how they view base stocks.

Quote:
AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties


IMO, this statement is inaccurate. I agree that judging on oil strictly from the base stock only is false economy. However base stock, to me, is the foundation upon which everything is built. They should be "shouting this from the mountain tops" as this is what seperates them from all the others. I fail to understand why their marketing people? lawyers? use this language. It makes it look as if they have something to hide. Better to have full disclosure than this "gobbly gook" language as I feel that they would convert more people over to their side. I'm just using myself as an example. I was ready to convert until I saw this. Now, I'm not so sure.
 
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
They should be "shouting this from the mountain tops" as this is what seperates them from all the others. I fail to understand why their marketing people? lawyers? use this language. It makes it look as if they have something to hide. Better to have full disclosure than this "gobbly gook" language as I feel that they would convert more people over to their side. I'm just using myself as an example. I was ready to convert until I saw this. Now, I'm not so sure.


It does seem very strange that Amsoil does not publicly promote the use of PAO/ester, if in fact these are the only base oils in their top line engine oils, as it is what really separates them from competitors. Their base oil statement declines to reveal the base oils for proprietary reasons, but elsewhere on the website they open disclose the base oils, such as diesters or PAOs in compressor oils and PAO in a transmission fluid.

It can't be too secret if they allow their representatives to openly disclose the base oils on a public forum.

Tom NJ
 
So Pablo.
What does the 0w-40 4 stroke oil consist of. I have about 20 quarts of it laying around. As well as the 10w-40 motorcycle oil and the 20w-50 motorcycle oil. All told probably 60-70 quarts. I also have a pile of the SSO 5w-30 and 10w-30. Are all of these group 4/5 basestocks. If so I won't be as generous giving it away.
And is the 0w-40 4 stroke oil car suitable or just for powersports.
Thank you
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
And is the 0w-40 4 stroke oil car suitable or just for powersports.


I want to know this as well!

Does this oil have less stout of an add pack than the SSOs (wet clutches, etc.), and a similar blend of group4/5 base stocks???
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
They should be "shouting this from the mountain tops" as this is what seperates them from all the others. I fail to understand why their marketing people? lawyers? use this language. It makes it look as if they have something to hide. Better to have full disclosure than this "gobbly gook" language as I feel that they would convert more people over to their side. I'm just using myself as an example. I was ready to convert until I saw this. Now, I'm not so sure.


It does seem very strange that Amsoil does not publicly promote the use of PAO/ester, if in fact these are the only base oils in their top line engine oils, as it is what really separates them from competitors. Their base oil statement declines to reveal the base oils for proprietary reasons, but elsewhere on the website they open disclose the base oils, such as diesters or PAOs in compressor oils and PAO in a transmission fluid.

It can't be too secret if they allow their representatives to openly disclose the base oils on a public forum.

Tom NJ


I agree. I have a feeling the % of PAO/Ester has been dropping and they'd rather not shout it from the roof top drawing attention.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Clevy
And is the 0w-40 4 stroke oil car suitable or just for powersports.


I want to know this as well!

Does this oil have less stout of an add pack than the SSOs (wet clutches, etc.), and a similar blend of group4/5 base stocks???

The bottles iirc have a JASO stamp but I cannot remember which one. There are at least 2 I have seen. I don't know if there are more than 2.
If they are car compatible and have a decent add pack I will hang on to this stuff a bit tighter. My Honda bike will get it for spring/fall as will most of my other gas motors.
Pablo.......a little guidance for us please
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
They should be "shouting this from the mountain tops" as this is what seperates them from all the others. I fail to understand why their marketing people? lawyers? use this language. It makes it look as if they have something to hide. Better to have full disclosure than this "gobbly gook" language as I feel that they would convert more people over to their side. I'm just using myself as an example. I was ready to convert until I saw this. Now, I'm not so sure.


It does seem very strange that Amsoil does not publicly promote the use of PAO/ester, if in fact these are the only base oils in their top line engine oils, as it is what really separates them from competitors. Their base oil statement declines to reveal the base oils for proprietary reasons, but elsewhere on the website they open disclose the base oils, such as diesters or PAOs in compressor oils and PAO in a transmission fluid.

It can't be too secret if they allow their representatives to openly disclose the base oils on a public forum.

Tom NJ


I have no secrets to divulge. I am my own employee, and am not employed by Amsoil in any shape or form. What I know is amassed from 30 yea+rs of learning.

There is a particular angle that you guys seem to miss.

But first allow me to repeat, we are not talking about anything new. This statement has been the same for about 5 years. So people speculating about Amsoil dropping %'s of whatever are just wrong. There is no other way to put it. Wrong.

Now as to Amsoil angle, I want you guys to put on your thinking caps. I know it's a little tough for some of you speculators, but here goes: Some time ago Amsoil wanted to get the point across about not focusing on one aspect ONLY because then the competition would just up their number and exceed that parameter. It's like the electric motor business if any of you know about that. So same goes for base oils and additives. Amsoil used to have (around 2003-2004) "100% PAO" on the cases. I pointed out, "hey the oil isn't 100% PAO, it's got some esters", and they said, "yeah you are correct" and whammo off the case it came. If they put 75% PAO, then the concern is someone will say 80% PAO and so on - remember guys, 99.99% of Amsoil customers are NOT BITOG members. Can you understand this at all? It's Amsoil marketing technique and it works.

Tell me this: Which of the top 5 motor oil companies are screaming about the composition of their base oils?

And the last question: At $4.44 QT what is so bad about the base oils in OE? It's selling like hot cakes, so the word must not be out yet.
grin2.gif
What separates Amsoil from the rest are the modern and excellent formulations, not screaming about one or two base oils.
 
Pablo
I use amsoil because I think it is as good a product as any out there and I like cheering for the little guy. And I think it's an honest company. Big business tends to try to keep consumers in the dark whereas smaller companies seem to care about us,the little people.
Now getting back to the 4 stroke oil....
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
0W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil (AFF) is a PAO/Ester based oil. If your car is good with API SL/CF, SJ, SH, SG then it works great. It's JASO MA/MA2.

Thank you Pablo.
 
Thanks Pablo. Yeah, I can see your point on this concerning the marketing angle. I got interested in what actually goes into an oil during the Castrol-Mobile shootout at the OK corral. That, and I try to be a more informed consumer. There's also hardly a week that passes that someone isn't asking me something about car maintenance due to my background in commercial aviation and automotive. I endeavor to provide them the most informed answer I can.

Quote:
AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties.


I still think this is a poor asertation when base stocks comprise 80%?? of a product. But, who am I to argue with success?

Quote:
It's like the electric motor business if any of you know about that.


I was in HVAC for awhile. Even though it's off topic, are you speaking about when electric motor horsepowers became really convoluted and pretty much meaningless?

Thanks...
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Yes EXACTLY. Just people claiming stuff. It's all marketing fluff. Amsoil is no better or worse.


Well amsoil didn't dilute their oils with cheap group 3 when it was decided group 3s were "close enough" to synthetic(mobil). The company has consistently stuck to their guns with their product and didn't fool the consumer into thinking they were still getting what they paid for when it comes to synthetic(mobil). Amsoil as a company has shown time and time again that the company has integrity. All business's care about their bottom line,amsoil left their product the same even though it would have helped their bottom line to follow the pack with their weaker group 3 oils,and still badged them synthetic. They didn't. And the uneducated public still believes the mobil 1 bull even though their formulation has changed how many times to a cheaper product,but the cost to consumer stays the same.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Yes EXACTLY. Just people claiming stuff. It's all marketing fluff. Amsoil is no better or worse.


Well amsoil didn't dilute their oils with cheap group 3 when it was decided group 3s were "close enough" to synthetic(mobil). The company has consistently stuck to their guns with their product and didn't fool the consumer into thinking they were still getting what they paid for when it comes to synthetic(mobil). Amsoil as a company has shown time and time again that the company has integrity. All business's care about their bottom line,amsoil left their product the same even though it would have helped their bottom line to follow the pack with their weaker group 3 oils,and still badged them synthetic. They didn't. And the uneducated public still believes the mobil 1 bull even though their formulation has changed how many times to a cheaper product,but the cost to consumer stays the same.


http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlm.aspx

xlm_qt_300pxh.jpg


Originally Posted By: Amsoil
AMSOIL XL Extended Life Synthetic Motor Oils provide better wear control, high- and low-temperature protection and increased fuel economy compared to conventional oils. Formulated with extended-drain boost technology, AMSOIL XL Synthetic Motor Oils provide superior performance for up to 10,000-miles/six months, or longer when recommended in owner’s manuals or indicated by electronic oil life monitoring systems.


The XL oil is Group III.

Who isn't doing what now?
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Pablo
I use amsoil because I think it is as good a product as any out there and I like cheering for the little guy. And I think it's an honest company. Big business tends to try to keep consumers in the dark whereas smaller companies seem to care about us,the little people.
Now getting back to the 4 stroke oil....


LOL!!!!
 
Quote:
What separates Amsoil from the rest are the modern and excellent formulations, not screaming about one or two base oils.


crackmeup2.gif
 
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