2 x E-Core (shocker) , 20k+ Fram, P Classic - Pics

[daman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

No, I have no concerns whatsoever about using Ecores ..if I in fact still used Ecore's. Every filter has a bout with defects.

Gary Gary yea but the other filters that may have had a defect couldn't have harmed your engine like what happen here with this escrap blowing media up into the engine.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

I do encourage you to send these filter back to Champ. They'll be able to trace the lousy media pleat down to the actual human that formed the seam.


Phew, I thought I was going crazy...

My stance all along has been exactly what you stated in your last sentence. Bad/uneven pleats allowing the media to fold flat against the ecore tube. No flat media = no ripped media with ecores (in this application of course) IMHO.

In that respect, there can also be no denying a solid center tube would be 'backup' security should the same human make similar ugly pleats in other filters.

What you said reminds me of an awakening of sorts when I was in my early 20's, when my mother turned to me during one of my bouts of frustration with the world and said "darling, you need to realize that nothing is perfect if you want to be happy in your life". Wise lady and I'm blessed that she's still around to pass me some of those gems of wisdom

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Anyway you slice it, it doubtful a BBC pump would develop much more than 70 psi if that and so if the filter flowed anything there would not be 70+ psi ahead of the oil filter in the first place. I guess virtually 0 flow through the filter is possible, but it's the failure pattern. Metal end caps and center tubes wouldn't fail the same way.

You kinda constructed that statement to work around to your current disposition toward Ecores in general.

In all honesty, that's all it is, a made to fit rationalization. That's the the function of a bypass mechanism, to prevent oil starvation by allowing oil to pass the dense media. ALL MEDIA BY ANY MANUFACTURER IS DENSE AND RESISTS FLOW IN A SERIOUS WAY COMPARE TO AIR. That's real simple. Again, gravity feed oil prefilling a filter. ANY FILTER. PureOne, M1, MC, ST, PS ..

The stuff is a virtual SOLID to oil flow. Without back pressure they're a wall. That's why bypasses are there. He didn't have one ..he paid the price. Very simple.

Really, if you want to bash Ecore's ..fine, but don't reach by making fantasy rationalizations.


My point is there's no real proof that the BBC pump developed 70 psi to begin with. It's possible but not known for sure. And where is the proof that all oil filters provided no flow to cold oil? Most test I've seen suggest a psid closer to 10 psi maybe 20 psi for cold oil flow not +70 psi. Without test numbers on your part it's just as much speculation as anyone's.

But I think the main point relevent to all ecores with even intact filter bypasses is being overlooked. And that is the failure mode of the plastic cage. So what happens when you haven't fiddled with the bypass and for some reason the bypass should fail to work?

This is all in addition to the blowing out media that no one can really dispute. Your reply is really annoying to tell you the truth. We don't really know what happened to that ecore. Maybe the real reason it saw +70 psid in the first place besides the non-working bypass is because it had a partial failure first like the one in this thread?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

No, I have no concerns whatsoever about using Ecores ..if I in fact still used Ecore's. Every filter has a bout with defects.

Gary Gary yea but the other filters that may have had a defect couldn't have harmed your engine like what happen here with this escrap blowing media up into the engine.


..and no other filter can result in a different engine destroying fault/failure? We've seen crushed metal center tubes before.

Again ..and to use the totally sensible counter argument to Fram bashing, where are all the Ecore grenaded engines? I assure you hundreds of thousands of units are using Ecores and they're rolling down the road just fine.

Again, I have no dog in the fight. I've found cheaper filters for those engines in the extended fleet that can't manage a decent extended drain. If AA still had its AATG BOGO sales ..they would be my choice for a lower tier filter. ST stopped being a bargain when $2.02 went away.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

No, I have no concerns whatsoever about using Ecores ..if I in fact still used Ecore's. Every filter has a bout with defects.

Gary Gary yea but the other filters that may have had a defect couldn't have harmed your engine like what happen here with this escrap blowing media up into the engine.


Exactly. One failure caused by an oil filters is one too many. True we don't see tons of engine failures proven to be caused by faulty ecores or Frams or whatever. But what we do see at times is engines fail with no explaination. I don't mind people defending ecores or Frams but what I do mind is one person acting like their specualtion is more valid than another. I say play it safe. I have yet seen any evidence of an all metal end caps and center tube constructed filter failing significantly.

 

[paulo57509]

I'm an E-Core user (both ST and AC-Delco) and yes, this does concern me. I'm not going to make any rash decisions or the like, But I will follow this thread closely.

Thanks.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

No, I have no concerns whatsoever about using Ecores ..if I in fact still used Ecore's. Every filter has a bout with defects.

Gary Gary yea but the other filters that may have had a defect couldn't have harmed your engine like what happen here with this escrap blowing media up into the engine.


Exactly. One failure caused by an oil filters is one too many. True we don't see tons of engine failures proven to be caused by faulty ecores or Frams or whatever. But what we do see at times is engines fail with no explaination. I don't mind people defending ecores or Frams but what I do mind is one person acting like their specualtion is more valid than another. I say play it safe. I have yet seen any evidence of an all metal end caps and center tube constructed filter failing significantly.

I don't have a problem either is someone wants to defend them go ahead but i know they would be singing a different tune if that happened to them.

all i have to say is why take the chance when there's better out there for about the same money?

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Again ..and to use the totally sensible counter argument to Fram bashing, where are all the Ecore grenaded engines? I assure you hundreds of thousands of units are using Ecores and they're rolling down the road just fine.


I would be rolling down the road oblivious too had I not cut mine open. That doesn't mean there aren't hundreds/thousands out there with blown media. It simply means it hasn't caused any noticeable damage for the 'average' person to notice.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't think I ever bashed Fram. The reason I'm kind of critical of the ecore is sort along the lines of webfors grand pa. ACDelco and Champion had a perfectly fine product, one that I'd loyally use and it appears they screwed it up all for the sake of cheapness. Then they tell you the product is better in every way than the old. That's what puts me off. Frams are what they just about always been.

I was even still considering using and recommending the ACDelco ecores even after seeing how they can fail if the bypass is inoperative, and hope and pray the bypass always works, until I saw this thread. What I wonder though is all the filter threads and cut open ecores it wasn't until now that it came out that the media can blow out?

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

No, I have no concerns whatsoever about using Ecores ..if I in fact still used Ecore's. Every filter has a bout with defects.

Gary Gary yea but the other filters that may have had a defect couldn't have harmed your engine like what happen here with this escrap blowing media up into the engine.


Exactly. One failure caused by an oil filters is one too many. True we don't see tons of engine failures proven to be caused by faulty ecores or Frams or whatever. But what we do see at times is engines fail with no explaination. I don't mind people defending ecores or Frams but what I do mind is one person acting like their specualtion is more valid than another. I say play it safe. I have yet seen any evidence of an all metal end caps and center tube constructed filter failing significantly.


The pictures seem to have disappeared from that old thread I dug up, but it sounds like Gary had aboutthe same trouble with a sacred Pure One, although it may date back to the Arvin days.

At this point, I think it would be foolish to either abandon the Ecore filters or to blithely continue using them.

I have liked the Ecores from the beginning, seeing them as an innovative product allowing us to retain American jobs by working smarter, not cheaper. Nor do I entirely dismiss environmental concerns.

It would be nice if anybody removes an Ecore in the next week or 2 if they chop it open and report its condition. Even if you have never cut one open, Using a hack saw on one filter isn't that big of a job. If it is black and pleats going every which way, you might get an UOA. It the problem is excess moisture in your engine, You have problems steel end caps won't fix. You had better do more than buy a different brand of filter.

If it looks normal, please let others know.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Again ..and to use the totally sensible counter argument to Fram bashing, where are all the Ecore grenaded engines? I assure you hundreds of thousands of units are using Ecores and they're rolling down the road just fine.


I would be rolling down the road oblivious too had I not cut mine open. That doesn't mean there aren't hundreds/thousands out there with blown media. It simply means it hasn't caused any noticeable damage for the 'average' person to notice.


Exactly. A quick lube owner showed us plenty of Champ Lab Warner filters that had breached media. He never would tell us how many miles were on them. The GM's with the in block bypass never showed the issue. They all looked like someone got an oil change as an after thought.

None of those owners grenaded their engines.


Again, just in case I have not made myself perfectly clear, I have no dog in this fight. I neither use (not for years- although I have a few sitting around), nor sell, nor "love" Ecore filters. I'm what would be termed a "disinterested party". I neither benefit from the production nor the use of the object in question. I do find their design interesting and novel. I wish they made an upscale version.

This is more a group/social dynamic comment on my part. Most of us get emotional about these matters ...irrationally so most times.

So, by all means never use an Ecore again. You may want to petition AC Delco to find another producer as well.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't see why they can't just go back to a steel center tube and they could even keep the fiber end caps and the combo bypass and the filter would be about is eco friendly what ever that means. Better yet, just go back to the classic design and then I'd use it.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't see why they can't just go back to a steel center tube and they could even keep the fiber end caps and the combo bypass and the filter would be about is eco friendly what ever that means. Better yet, just go back to the classic design and then I'd use it.


Heck, use a plastic center tube with small holes and change nothing else and I'd use them. Any design that allows for large pieces of matter to pass, even under the rarest of circumstances, won't do.

 

[daman]

Well i think it all stared as a "better flowing filter" thing didn't it?? is how this came to be?

 

[webfors]

Oh, and make those pleats more uniform.. but with a solid center tube that's less of an issue.

 

[Gary Allan]

The Ecore, imo, was a gamble in future environmental avoided costs. As disposal fees climb and regulations get tightened, the Ecore will probably be one of the first "Last Man Standing" spin on filters out there. Spin-on filters will still be in the market for over a decade ..probably two. I imagine other filter manufacturers will react to this need and come out with their own retooled Ecore like filter. Ecore will be there first. A Champ rep can walk into any quick lube and show the owner/operator how they can save him money in avoided environmental related costs.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't see why they can't just go back to a steel center tube and they could even keep the fiber end caps and the combo bypass and the filter would be about is eco friendly what ever that means. Better yet, just go back to the classic design and then I'd use it.


Heck, use a plastic center tube with small holes and change nothing else and I'd use them. Any design that allows for large pieces of matter to pass, even under the rarest of circumstances, won't do.


Exactly, although if they used a plastic tube with small holes instead of thick reinforce ribs, the tube would have to be thick I'd think. I don't know if that would reduce flow, but I doubt the tube would need to be much thicker to provide much more media support and still withstand 70 psid, or flow more obstructive than a thinner metal tube.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The Ecore, imo, was a gamble in future environmental avoided costs. As disposal fees climb and regulations get tightened, the Ecore will probably be one of the first "Last Man Standing" spin on filters out there. Spin-on filters will still be in the market for over a decade ..probably two. I imagine other filter manufacturers will react to this need and come out with their own retooled Ecore like filter. Ecore will be there first. A Champ rep can walk into any quick lube and show the owner/operator how they can save him money in avoided environmental related costs.


I think you are right, cheaper and more eco will always win out. All the resistance and bad "publicity" never caused Fram to need to change their filter. So I'm kind of doubting Champ and ACDelco will do away with the ecore in the long run.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: daman
Well i think it all stared as a "better flowing filter" thing didn't it?? is how this came to be?


Anyone promoting a better flowing filter is just marketing a half truth that's real in the "apparent". All filters meet OEM spec's ..this includes flow capability. Hence the notion is more a perception thing ..even if it's true. 5gpm through a sieve. 5 gpm through a cheese cloth. 5gpm. "Better" can just mean easier ..and easier can be the difference between .2 and .3 " of W.C. in differential pressure.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: daman
Well i think it all stared as a "better flowing filter" thing didn't it?? is how this came to be?


I highly doubt flow through the center tube is much of an issue. Holes are cheap, and if the steel center tube was limiting flow, I am sure they would go ahead and punch a few more holes. I am sure the extra area was more a matter of what could be gotten away with than to improve flow.

Perhaps it is what you can get away with in a healthy engine. Sort of reminds me of the problems with GMC wheels cracking when the truck was over loaded. So the Ecore may need upgraded to handle excess moisture in the oil. Likely more, smaller plastic ribs woudl be fine.

Note, I notice the Napa Gold cartridge I just bought has the botton half of the tube solid.

Originally Posted By: webfors
Oh, and make those pleats more uniform.. but with a solid center tube that's less of an issue.


I think the only easy way to make the pleats uniform is to cough up for enough media to completely fill the area. How are you going to design a machine to hold each pleat in place?