2 x E-Core (shocker) , 20k+ Fram, P Classic - Pics

[mechanicx]

All true but still it made me distrustful of the ecore's failure mode if the filter bypass is not working. And it also makes me consider if the filter could develop 70 psid or more, then the media they are using is possibly more restrictive than some other filters. Cheap filter media with high efficiency would tend to be restrictive.

Anyway you slice it, it doubtful a BBC pump would develop much more than 70 psi if that and so if the filter flowed anything there would not be 70+ psi ahead of the oil filter in the first place. I guess virtually 0 flow through the filter is possible, but it's the failure pattern. Metal end caps and center tubes wouldn't fail the same way.

 

[webfors]

UPDATE

As promised, I pulled the PF53 off the saturn and replaced it with the ProSelect detailed previously in this thread. I checked the mileage and it was on for a total of 700km (approximately 430 miles). It flattened against the ecore in the same spot as the others. Here are the pics. Sorry the focus is bad. I'll take better pictures in daylight tomorrow:

The integrity of the media is very strong where the pleats are even, like this:

.

However, where the pleats are uneven where the media ends are glued together, you can clearly see the media give way and press against the ecore cage ribs:

~430 miles

I'll be cutting open the ProSelect in about 3k miles and I'll post the pics. I'm certain it will withstand the light service this car sees, in fact I'll be so bold as to predict we'll see no flattening of media and the filter will look almost as it did when it went in.

Sorry ecore fans, you have no argument to convince me to use this filter again that justifies putting my parents car at risk. I showed my 73 year old father the results and he was fuming mad. He's been a GM guy his whole life, brought all his cars to the dealer every 3.2k miles for service for the past 30 years!! When he witnessed the blown media and poor quality of the media in 4 PF53's he felt betrayed, and boy did he get mad. I felt bad making an old guys' blood boil like that

He wants me to perform an oil analysis at the next OCI, so I'll have that to offer up in a couple of months.

 

[mechanicx]

Is the media where it flattens out still glued solidily to the fiber end caps? I'm trying to visualize if they are glued flattened out and look that way new or do they unfold later. I still think the fiber end caps along with not enough media is a factor.

Maybe it isn't really AC Delco's fault? Maybe Champion is skimping out on how much media they install.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: webfors

I'll be cutting open the ProSelect in about 3k miles and I'll post the pics. I'm certain it will withstand the light service this car sees, in fact I'll be so bold as to predict we'll see no flattening of media and the filter will look almost as it did when it went in.


I suspect we will see the same distorted, flattened media unless with the warmer weather and maybe more miles, the moisture problem goes away. What I read yesterday about water swelling the media makes a lot of sense and could explain the difference from one engine to the next. The Pro Select isn't a top tier filter and likely will have uneven pleats. Even many of the highly rated filters are uneven at the seam.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Is the media where it flattens out still glued solidily to the fiber end caps? I'm trying to visualize if they are glued flattened out and look that way new or do they unfold later. I still think the fiber end caps along with not enough media is a factor.

Maybe it isn't really AC Delco's fault? Maybe Champion is skimping out on how much media they install.


Still glued to the end caps. If you scroll back in this thread I took pics of a new PF53 and at the very place it flattens out during use, there are large spaces in the pleats which are unevenly glued to the end caps. Meaning, the uniformity displayed in the rest of the filter is severely lacking in this one section. Not only is that one area unevenly spaced, but the one or two pleats in that space aren't glued 'taught', meaning the pleat(s) in that section have a lot of 'slack' allowing them to flatten.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: webfors

I'll be cutting open the ProSelect in about 3k miles and I'll post the pics. I'm certain it will withstand the light service this car sees, in fact I'll be so bold as to predict we'll see no flattening of media and the filter will look almost as it did when it went in.


I suspect we will see the same distorted, flattened media unless with the warmer weather and maybe more miles, the moisture problem goes away. What I read yesterday about water swelling the media makes a lot of sense and could explain the difference from one engine to the next. The Pro Select isn't a top tier filter and likely will have uneven pleats. Even many of the highly rated filters are uneven at the seam.


What moisture problem?! Filter with the hole came out in the fall after a summer run of 3.2k miles. Next PF53 with the same flattened media but no holes was through the winter for another 3.2k miles, and the last one I just posted above ran for 430 miles over the past 3 weeks of warm spring weather above freezing, sunshine and blue skies.

On a good note, I did speak with Champ Labs and they have been very polite and interested in this issue. They have been following this thread and knew all about it before I called them. They informed me the thread link had been forward to their engineering department and they are in conversation with AC Delco to agree to have the filter sent back to them.

So as unhappy as I am with how these filters have performed, I am impressed with the response from Champ Labs and their desire to investigate. So I'll be waiting on a kit from them to ship the filter(s) at their request.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: labman
The Pro Select isn't a top tier filter and likely will have uneven pleats. Even many of the highly rated filters are uneven at the seam.


I agree with you on that. Uneven pleats seems to be a regular thing. However, with a solid center tube with small holes, the uneven media is less of a concern as it simply isn't possible for a large chunk of media to pass through.

 

[wannafbody]

It's good that Champ is reading this thread but it is probably more of CYA type of thing. I wonder if this thread isn't symptomatic of a larger issue and isn't why WalMart is closing out the AC Delco line.

 

[jeepman]

Originally Posted By: wannafbody
It's good that Champ is reading this thread but it is probably more of CYA type of thing. I wonder if this thread isn't symptomatic of a larger issue and isn't why WalMart is closing out the AC Delco line.


The newest WalMart that opened near me has more ACDelco's than ever. In fact, you can't even buy an ST there if they carry the ACDelco part number, so I don't think they are closing them out everywhere. The ACDelco sells for about .80 more, so I'm sure they are making more margin from them than the Supertech's.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: labman
The Pro Select isn't a top tier filter and likely will have uneven pleats. Even many of the highly rated filters are uneven at the seam.


I agree with you on that. Uneven pleats seems to be a regular thing. However, with a solid center tube with small holes, the uneven media is less of a concern as it simply isn't possible for a large chunk of media to pass through.

The NPS is an "OK" filter the one thing that kills it for me is the crazy thin media it doesn't look like it could filter much at all hate to see the beta ratio on that filter, it's also very weak the media,i've got two(1515) off my FORD tractor i used for a flush filter and the media is very thin thinner then the ST witch was a shocker and tears easily like paper,nice center tube and glue job tho but i still won't use those again.

 

[webfors]

That's strange, because the media on the NPS I opened up was very thick, probably twice as thick as the AC Delco media and it did *not* look like it was easy to tear at all. It could use more of the media/pleats though.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: webfors
That's strange, because the media on the NPS I opened up was very thick, probably twice as thick as the AC Delco media and it did *not* look like it was easy to tear at all. It could use more of the media/pleats though.

Oh mine sure are,I'll try to get a pic up today,disappointing for sure.

 

[webfors]

It goes to show that being brand loyal can be naive. For example the NPS made for my subaru is made in NC, while the one for the saturn is made in Mexico. Different looking center tubes, bypass valves, and maybe even media. So the moral of the story is find a *filter*, regardless of brand, that is made well and stick with it. Because you never know what's inside the next can.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: bigmike
webfors,

Were or are you able to pour the used oil through a screen to see if the media came out during the oil change?


I have 6 jugs of used oil. I suppose I could go through all of them, since I'm not 100% sure which one was from the OC that had that particular filter. Probably a good idea. I'll keep you posted.

It is a good lesson though. From now on I'll be marking all filters that come off and the used oil jugs with the date/mileage so I can easily cross reference if needed. It's not something you think about until you well.. think about it.


Yeah, I know how it goes. I learned a few lessons after watching an oak leaf fall into my open valve cover when doing an oil change.

Now I drain through a screen on my pan. Then it gets dumped into a 5 gallon bucket.

You'll have to decide if it is worth doing. It would really stink if you did all of that work and found nothing.

Good luck with it!

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: webfors
It goes to show that being brand loyal can be naive. For example the NPS made for my subaru is made in NC, while the one for the saturn is made in Mexico. Different looking center tubes, bypass valves, and maybe even media. So the moral of the story is find a *filter*, regardless of brand, that is made well and stick with it. Because you never know what's inside the next can.

EXACTLY!!!


when it comes to oil filters i am not at all brand loyal,not concerning price i go with what is a quality made(center tube,media,glue) efficient filtering filter,i have but do not use M1 filters because there's nothing great about them when i can get a P1,AC UPF,RP,etc for about the same money and get a better filter IMO.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: bigmike
webfors,

Were or are you able to pour the used oil through a screen to see if the media came out during the oil change?


I have 6 jugs of used oil. I suppose I could go through all of them, since I'm not 100% sure which one was from the OC that had that particular filter. Probably a good idea. I'll keep you posted.

It is a good lesson though. From now on I'll be marking all filters that come off and the used oil jugs with the date/mileage so I can easily cross reference if needed. It's not something you think about until you well.. think about it.


Yeah, I know how it goes. I learned a few lessons after watching an oak leaf fall into my open valve cover when doing an oil change.

Now I drain through a screen on my pan. Then it gets dumped into a 5 gallon bucket.

You'll have to decide if it is worth doing. It would really stink if you did all of that work and found nothing.

Good luck with it!


I did actually empty all 6 jugs through a screen the day it was suggested. Nothing found, which is what I expected. A small piece of media running in a engine for a couple thousand miles. I didn't expect it to pop out in full form.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: bigmike
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: bigmike
webfors,

Were or are you able to pour the used oil through a screen to see if the media came out during the oil change?


I have 6 jugs of used oil. I suppose I could go through all of them, since I'm not 100% sure which one was from the OC that had that particular filter. Probably a good idea. I'll keep you posted.

It is a good lesson though. From now on I'll be marking all filters that come off and the used oil jugs with the date/mileage so I can easily cross reference if needed. It's not something you think about until you well.. think about it.


Yeah, I know how it goes. I learned a few lessons after watching an oak leaf fall into my open valve cover when doing an oil change.

Now I drain through a screen on my pan. Then it gets dumped into a 5 gallon bucket.

You'll have to decide if it is worth doing. It would really stink if you did all of that work and found nothing.

Good luck with it!


I did actually empty all 6 jugs through a screen the day it was suggested. Nothing found, which is what I expected. A small piece of media running in a engine for a couple thousand miles. I didn't expect it to pop out in full form.


Probably not, but worth the try I suppose. I've personally never been a big fan of the e-core. I quit getting oil changes done at my local shop when I found out they were going with the ecore AC Delcos and started doing them myself again. However, I've never stated anything negative to anyone or any threads about them. It was just a personal preference, but now I'm glad (in a way) to see the photos you took because that provides some confirmation to my opinion. In case you haven't heard it yet, thanks for taking the photos and time out of your day to post them.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Anyway you slice it, it doubtful a BBC pump would develop much more than 70 psi if that and so if the filter flowed anything there would not be 70+ psi ahead of the oil filter in the first place. I guess virtually 0 flow through the filter is possible, but it's the failure pattern. Metal end caps and center tubes wouldn't fail the same way.

You kinda constructed that statement to work around to your current disposition toward Ecores in general.

In all honesty, that's all it is, a made to fit rationalization. That's the the function of a bypass mechanism, to prevent oil starvation by allowing oil to pass the dense media. ALL MEDIA BY ANY MANUFACTURER IS DENSE AND RESISTS FLOW IN A SERIOUS WAY COMPARE TO AIR. That's real simple. Again, gravity feed oil prefilling a filter. ANY FILTER. PureOne, M1, MC, ST, PS ..

The stuff is a virtual SOLID to oil flow. Without back pressure they're a wall. That's why bypasses are there. He didn't have one ..he paid the price. Very simple.

Really, if you want to bash Ecore's ..fine, but don't reach by making fantasy rationalizations.

 

[webfors]

Comparing a crate engine with a blocked bypass to a meticulously maintained senior driven Saturn is crazy talk. An ecore should never have been used in that crate engine with or without a blocked bypass IMHO. Let's get off the 'extremes train' and look at the info provided in this and other threads on failed ecores. Does none of this give ecore users *any* concern? If not, I doubt much ever will.

Seriously though Gary, no concerns at all? None? You're 100% convinced that ecores will never blow media through the ecore center tube, even with threads showing it has happened, should the media be comprised

In each instance ecore users blame the car, the driver, the conditions, "moisture problems", and anything else but the filter. I find that to be the strangest thing of all.. like I'm in some sort of alternate dimension where reality is backwards... like a twilight zone of opposites

 

[Gary Allan]

First, I didn't bring up the engine destroying Ecore. I merely clarified some misrepresented/illdepicted events.

It would be the equivalent of "wherever there's trouble a (insert ethnic group of choice here) is sure to be at the root of it".

End of subject on the totally senseless destruction of an engine for lack of knowing what you're doing. A little assumed knowledge can be a dangerous thing. We all assume that our knowledge base is complete. It's only after that $7000 event that the owner realized that his was somewhat one dimensional and that there are things that can and will occur outside of what he believed to be the entire realm that he surveyed.

No, I have no concerns whatsoever about using Ecores ..if I in fact still used Ecore's. Every filter has a bout with defects. We've seen them in Purolator's, Wix, Baldwin, and our all time whipping boy, Fram. We've seen/heard everything from the filter rattling (the spring was probably left out) rendering the filter useless ..to any number of issues. Breached media ..spiral'd media ..accordion'd media .. short center tubes.

We find fault in short center tubes ..but don't necessarily comment on "floating" center tubes where we perceive the filter as a good one.

This falls under the "NEVER AGAIN!!!!!

" Syndrome. All it requires is for the user to encounter the marginal odds in all things ..and end up with absolutely no options at all.

I do encourage you to send these filter back to Champ. They'll be able to trace the lousy media pleat down to the actual human that formed the seam.