10w30 Users

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
10w30 is very relevant to me in my search for high quality synthetic engine oils that are built with cold flow properties as a last priority. I won't always want this in my locale bc winter, but I do want it whenever it's not below freezing.

I can't think of many scenarios where I'd consider Castrol Edge 10w-30 SN/GF-5 over Castrol Edge 0w-30 A3/B4


That's my Oz experience...I don't NEED or want anything below 15W in terms of the cold flow, but I don't want 15W40 HTHS, and would strongly prefer full synthetic (whatever that means currently).

Result pushes into the high HTHS ACEA 30s, or a 5W40.

 

[Garak]

Of course, ILSAC 30 grades are quite ubiquitous here. Canadian Tire has yanked most 10w-30 synthetics. As I've said many times, if I want a thicker 30, an ILSAC 10w-30 really isn't the answer. I can find a 10w-30 HDEO, or a 5w-30 or 0w-30 A3/B4. Our A3/B4 stuff is generally top end products, with none of the 15w-40 A3/B3 A3/B4 things you guys see. If it's a 15w-40 here, it's an HDEO. Castrol 5w-30 A3/B4 is probably the "least premium" A3/B4 I can readily find on the market here.

As Joe mentioned with the cold numbers, that can be observed on North American data sheets, too, comparing a 5w-30 HDEO to a 5w-30 ILSAC, or a 10w-30 HDEO to a 10w-30 ILSAC. The ILSAC variants do tend to pole vault well past the CCS and MRV requirements.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
10w30 is very relevant to me in my search for high quality synthetic engine oils that are built with cold flow properties as a last priority. I won't always want this in my locale bc winter, but I do want it whenever it's not below freezing.

I can't think of many scenarios where I'd consider Castrol Edge 10w-30 SN/GF-5 over Castrol Edge 0w-30 A3/B4 (well, the 10w-30 comes in 5 L jugs which are cheaper than 1 L bottles, but you catch my drift).


IDK about the examples you chose, but if there was a Castrol Edge 0w30 with absolutely no VMs, it might not be a 0w anymore, and whatever the cold rating would be for that 0w30 sans the VMs would be of no concern to me if it met the HTHS and KV on base oil alone. The quality of a 10w30 synthetic depends entirely on the blender. Some prefer to use straight synthetic high VI bases and some choose to cheap out on the bases vs the rest of the synthetic line, still resorting to high VM content in low quality base oil for narrow spread grades. Which road the blender takes makes all the difference.

Shannow, just out of curiosity what do you mean by you don't want a 15w40's HTHS? Too high or too low? If we're on the same page, then too high? I personally like the 'North American style" ILSAC 10w30s that Garak talks about vs a diesel 10w30, at least in my high-RPM NA gasser, bc the HTHS is lower than HD 10w30s (eg 3.1 vs 3.5?). ILSAC 10w30 is a fine choice IMO as a replacement for CAFE grades- (generally speaking) they're not too draggy and probably not too adulterated by VMs. Of course this only applies to products from blenders that choose to make a quality ILSAC 10w30 and not economise the grade out of disdain for it. Also notable, the recent demands on ILSAC 5w30 has undoubtedly pushed the entire grade into a much more robust version of what it once was ten, fifteen years ago. Sometimes (often times now?) a 5w30 will be blended with more synthetic, higher VI basestocks just to meet demands and new specs like Dexos. So it's not always a rule that a 10w30 of the same product line will be of significantly more robust than the 5w30 variant, but it's still very well possible.

Garak, it's not at all surprising that CT and other retailers in the Skatch have no shelf space for 10w30s, quite expected really. In the GTA 10w30s of all kinds are on the shelves. When Wal Mart has blowouts on oil, they stock 5w30 and 5w20 in winter and 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 in summer. I was very excited to grab a couple jugs of the GTL-era PYB 10w30 (the one with an allegedly stupid NOACK of 4). There's even a bit left outside in the cold. I shook it during -20C and it sloshed!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
10w30 is very relevant to me in my search for high quality synthetic engine oils that are built with cold flow properties as a last priority. I won't always want this in my locale bc winter, but I do want it whenever it's not below freezing.

I can't think of many scenarios where I'd consider Castrol Edge 10w-30 SN/GF-5 over Castrol Edge 0w-30 A3/B4 (well, the 10w-30 comes in 5 L jugs which are cheaper than 1 L bottles, but you catch my drift).


IDK about the examples you chose, but if there was a Castrol Edge 0w30 with absolutely no VMs, it might not be a 0w anymore, and whatever the cold rating would be for that 0w30 sans the VMs would be of no concern to me if it met the HTHS and KV on base oil alone. The quality of a 10w30 synthetic depends entirely on the blender. Some prefer to use straight synthetic high VI bases and some choose to cheap out on the bases vs the rest of the synthetic line, still resorting to high VM content in low quality base oil for narrow spread grades. Which road the blender takes makes all the difference


It's a bit more nuanced than that. Garak seems to be alluding to the A3/B4 being a better oil by virtue of it being A3/B4. Most of these are at least somewhat PAO-based and carry a long list of manufacturer approvals that are far more demanding than any of the API and ILSAC stuff. And of course that touches on your last point: When a blender is blending to a price point (and they all are) there is very little incentive to produce a more expensive product than necessary. When basically nobody calls for a 10w-30 and there are basically no major approvals for the grade, there is no reason to produce that product from something like PAO when they can do it with Group II, PPD's and some VII. Which brings us to identifying the Unicorns on the shelf that aren't mail-order like AMSOIL's 10w-30/SAE30 PAO-based product with a price to match.

Generally, I think Garak's right that if you are staring at the shelf at Walmart or Canadian Tire, you are going to get a better-based and more robust product (including higher levels of AW additives) with a Euro 0w-40/0w-30 than an ILSAC 10w-30.

 

[PeterPolyol]

I get the ACEA and Euro manufacturers mandates- they prioritize for high HTHS and long life while ILSAC and API just the opposite. I'm not really looking for long-drain performance on many of my applications, especially not at a premium price. The Euros really like their viscosity and their engines seem to be quite needy of it- design differences, operation modes etc. Believe it or not, but I find some value in lower HTHSVs that the ILSAC grades provide for appropriate applications. IDK if you remember Esso XD-3 0w40 but I used to run that beast juice in high RPM engines and you could always feel it, especially when compared against an eco oil like Honda/Idemitsu 0w20. That engine has ML 0w20 in it now, but come summer I think I'll just drop in the remaining half jugs of PYB 5w20 and 10w30 (from the alleged GTL era). And before someone grabs the flame thrower, do note that I so thoroughly **** about what the W rating winds up as

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
I get the ACEA and Euro manufacturers mandates- they prioritize for high HTHS and long life while ILSAC and API just the opposite. I'm not really looking for long-drain performance on many of my applications, especially not at a premium price. The Euros really like their viscosity and their engines seem to be quite needy of it- design differences, operation modes etc. Believe it or not, but I find some value in lower HTHSVs that the ILSAC grades provide for appropriate applications. IDK if you remember Esso XD-3 0w40 but I used to run that beast juice in high RPM engines and you could always feel it, especially when compared against an eco oil like Honda/Idemitsu 0w20. That engine has ML 0w20 in it now, but come summer I think I'll just drop in the remaining half jugs of PYB 5w20 and 10w30 (from the alleged GTL era). And before someone grabs the flame thrower, do note that I so thoroughly **** about what the W rating winds up as

Well, you could always try to find some M1 EP or AP 0w-20 on sale, it likely has next to no VII in it

 

[PeterPolyol]

Haven't bought a Mobil oil product in over a decade!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Haven't bought a Mobil oil product in over a decade!


Blasphemy!

 

[SonofJoe]

Peter, you said...

When a blender is blending to a price point (and they all are) there is very little incentive to produce a more expensive product than necessary...


Whilst that is true at the individual blend plant level (basically they just blend to predefined recipes), if you look at what's happened in the industry over the last 30 years, the entire ethos has been one of making products that are arguably 'more expensive than necessary'.

I think it was Henry Ford who said 'Small cars make for small profits'. You can sort of apply the same maxim to engine oils. If your objectives are upping both revenue & profits, you don't want to be selling cheap, low DI treat, commodity mono-grades; you want to be selling expensive 'speciality' oils which contain high DI treats (made with exotic componentry) & are 'wide' viscocity grades (and so contain a lot of VII).

It definitely helps if you can work hand-in-hand with OEMs who want 'the best oils' for their engines but are in the extremely fortunate position of not having to pick up the tab for what their 'ideal' oils cost. It absolutely helps if those same OEMs have an identifiable financial incentive to create oils which maximise fuel economy because this directly drives you to making more expensive oils.

If you took a rational, informed look at the existing market, you might come to the conclusion that in general, engine oils are simultaneously over-specified, overpriced and underused. Rather than being 'obsolete', one might possibly see 10W30s (and better still, 10W20s) as a corrective response to a very dysfunctional market situation.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

M1 HM 10w-30 is a3/b3 rated with HTHS of 3.5

One of the best if not the best off-the-shelf 10w-30’s out there.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
M1 HM 10w-30 is a3/b3 rated with HTHS of 3.5

One of the best if not the best off-the-shelf 10w-30’s out there.

That’s great to know. I am tempted to use in a newer vehicle,. Will hm marketed oil do damage a new vehicle?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
M1 HM 10w-30 is a3/b3 rated with HTHS of 3.5

One of the best if not the best off-the-shelf 10w-30’s out there.


It's 1-5% PAO however, whilst Mobil 1 10w-30 the plain version is 10-20% according to the MSDS. I'd wager that means the latter has less VII in it.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
M1 HM 10w-30 is a3/b3 rated with HTHS of 3.5

One of the best if not the best off-the-shelf 10w-30’s out there.


It's 1-5% PAO however, whilst Mobil 1 10w-30 the plain version is 10-20% according to the MSDS. I'd wager that means the latter has less VII in it.


I like the acea a3 certification more than PAO

 

[SilverFusion2010]

No damage to a new vehicle. HM oils aren’t as different from the regular oils as marketing would like us to think

Overkill the plain version is HTHS 3.0 and is an ilsac grade. It does not have the acea a3 rating

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
M1 HM 10w-30 is a3/b3 rated with HTHS of 3.5

One of the best if not the best off-the-shelf 10w-30’s out there.


It's 1-5% PAO however, whilst Mobil 1 10w-30 the plain version is 10-20% according to the MSDS. I'd wager that means the latter has less VII in it.


I like the acea a3 certification more than PAO


I thought the purpose of pursuing 10w-30's here was to find one with as little VII in it as possible, which means we are rolling on base oil selection to make that happen. If you just want A3, a 0w-40 or 0w-30 will provide a similar HTHS and hot viscosity along with more approvals. The reason I pointed out the PAO content was in-step with the lack of VII's theme, as that seemed to the be the focus

Reminds me a bit of the Castrol 0w-40/5w-40 thing where the 0w-40 was purported to have less VII's than the 5w-40 because it was mostly PAO, whilst the 5w-40 was a cheaper Group III blend.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
No damage to a new vehicle. HM oils aren’t as different from the regular oils as marketing would like us to think

Overkill the plain version is HTHS 3.0 and is an ilsac grade. It does not have the acea a3 rating


I get that, however I think you might be losing the "10w-30 low VII" advantage with that particular product, despite gaining a higher HTHS. JMHO of course.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

I’m leaning toward M1 0w40 for my next change personally, but I have about six qt of the HM 10w-30 to go in the 2001 Malibu. Quiets the valve train right down.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
I’m leaning toward M1 0w40 for my next change personally, but I have about six qt of the HM 10w-30 to go in the 2001 Malibu. Quiets the valve train right down.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Peter, you said...

When a blender is blending to a price point (and they all are) there is very little incentive to produce a more expensive product than necessary...


Whilst that is true at the individual blend plant level (basically they just blend to predefined recipes), if you look at what's happened in the industry over the last 30 years, the entire ethos has been one of making products that are arguably 'more expensive than necessary'.

Good insight SoJ, but it wasn't me that said that

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Peter, you said...

When a blender is blending to a price point (and they all are) there is very little incentive to produce a more expensive product than necessary...


Whilst that is true at the individual blend plant level (basically they just blend to predefined recipes), if you look at what's happened in the industry over the last 30 years, the entire ethos has been one of making products that are arguably 'more expensive than necessary'.

Good insight SoJ, but it wasn't me that said that

Ooops! I checked back and it was Overkill who said it; not you. Apologies...