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0W-16 Oil....... Really ??
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Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JLTD
I'll bet that in other countries they're using a heavier oil.
That doesn't always mean that they are right. People always point to the fact that in Europe and Australia the same cars use heavier weight oils but part of it is the fact that those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all, so stores don't carry it.
Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now.
I'll bet that in other countries they're using a heavier oil.
That doesn't always mean that they are right. People always point to the fact that in Europe and Australia the same cars use heavier weight oils but part of it is the fact that those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all, so stores don't carry it.
Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Danno
With almost 4000 posts and you haven't heard of 0W-16? It's probably been talked about for at least 3 years on this forum. To give you a preview, your next Camry will probably use 0W-12.
Congrats on the new ride sounds sweet.
I was going to put it a little bit more politely, but yes, there is a lot of discussion on 0w-16 and lower grades on here. Probably very few adopters.
Apparently my Honda Accord Hybrid is back-specified to run 0w-16. Im more hesitant in that because when highway driving, the engine will randomly shut off after going 10 miles at 75 MPH - so heat soak and resultant even lower viscosity is a concern.
For a regular IC engine specified for this oil, Id have fewer concerns if any.
When the engine shuts off, does the water temp go up? When the engine is shut off the vast majority of the oil is down in the pan and doesn’t see any additional heat. In fact you would have shut off the source of hot oil to the pan so it would instantly start cooling off from air flow across the pan. Just an alternate angle.
Fine point, perhaps a bit OT for this thread, but Im sure youre right. Just like an operating engine has the bulk of oil in the pan. My concern is the oil trapped between the piston and the block, and the oil in the bearings. Id suspect that heat will readily transfer into that oil, raise the temperature readily, etc.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Danno
With almost 4000 posts and you haven't heard of 0W-16? It's probably been talked about for at least 3 years on this forum. To give you a preview, your next Camry will probably use 0W-12.
Congrats on the new ride sounds sweet.
I was going to put it a little bit more politely, but yes, there is a lot of discussion on 0w-16 and lower grades on here. Probably very few adopters.
Apparently my Honda Accord Hybrid is back-specified to run 0w-16. Im more hesitant in that because when highway driving, the engine will randomly shut off after going 10 miles at 75 MPH - so heat soak and resultant even lower viscosity is a concern.
For a regular IC engine specified for this oil, Id have fewer concerns if any.
When the engine shuts off, does the water temp go up? When the engine is shut off the vast majority of the oil is down in the pan and doesn’t see any additional heat. In fact you would have shut off the source of hot oil to the pan so it would instantly start cooling off from air flow across the pan. Just an alternate angle.
Fine point, perhaps a bit OT for this thread, but Im sure youre right. Just like an operating engine has the bulk of oil in the pan. My concern is the oil trapped between the piston and the block, and the oil in the bearings. Id suspect that heat will readily transfer into that oil, raise the temperature readily, etc.
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD
I'll bet that in other countries they're using a heavier oil.
That doesn't always mean that they are right. People always point to the fact that in Europe and Australia the same cars use heavier weight oils but part of it is the fact that those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all, so stores don't carry it.
Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now.
Dang, and I thought I'd edited that fast enough to not repeat a previous post. Since I didn't....I'll address your post:
1) "those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all". Why would they, when manufacturers specify all the way up to 20w50? Plus, you don't sell oils by weight if people "embrace" it, you sell oil by weights that are needed.
2) "Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now"
Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?
edit:
To be fair, in some applications a 20 grade oil will be fine. Just not in everything, as recently illustrated by Ford going BACK to 5w30 in the 6.2L in the F250/350/etc after recommending 5w20 for awhile. AND Toyota owner's manuals stating that a heavier oil is needed in many conditions.
My point here in case you haven't read the numerous CAFE threads: In the US, CAFE regulations REQUIRE that the oil used to achieve mpg numbers be the ONLY oil recommended in the owner's manual. 20 grades do save a minuscule amount of fuel over thicker grades, so auto makers reap huge financial gains by increasing fuel economy, in tests, a small amount for each vehicle. All well and good, when only looking at mpg.
Why then do these auto makers, with the same engine in other countries, recommend a thicker oil there? If 0- or 5w20 had the same wear results as 20w50(for example) then certainly they'd recommend it in Australia, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? And make sure that oil was available by offering incentives to the auto parts stores. Or perhaps they're not bound by CAFE restrictions in those countries, so the engineers that designed the engines in the first place can put the best grade of oil for longevity into the owner's manual.
Insert discussion about how automakers aren't concerned as much with longevity as they are with profits. Having engines that last 400000 miles (with 30 grade) reduces sales a lot over having engines that last only 150000 miles(with 20 grade). Don't think for a minute that there isn't a department at every manufacturer that calculates this value for their bottom line.
Last little bit - Yes, most people in the US don't keep their vehicles very long, as opposed to other countries, and this may have contributed to the situation. If the average US buyer sees their vehicle as disposable and keeps it only 5 years or for the warranty, they don't really care how long the engine will last. Statistics show that Americans are keeping cars roughly 11.5 years and the miles during that time are solidly under 150k. (2 minute Google search) In most cases at that distance, any engine should still be running despite the grade of oil used.
I know that tig1 has been using M1 5w20 for 40 years. I'd be interested to see if any of those vehicles have gone 200k or more.
Originally Posted By: JLTD
I'll bet that in other countries they're using a heavier oil.
That doesn't always mean that they are right. People always point to the fact that in Europe and Australia the same cars use heavier weight oils but part of it is the fact that those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all, so stores don't carry it.
Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now.
Dang, and I thought I'd edited that fast enough to not repeat a previous post. Since I didn't....I'll address your post:
1) "those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all". Why would they, when manufacturers specify all the way up to 20w50? Plus, you don't sell oils by weight if people "embrace" it, you sell oil by weights that are needed.
2) "Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now"
Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?
edit:
To be fair, in some applications a 20 grade oil will be fine. Just not in everything, as recently illustrated by Ford going BACK to 5w30 in the 6.2L in the F250/350/etc after recommending 5w20 for awhile. AND Toyota owner's manuals stating that a heavier oil is needed in many conditions.
My point here in case you haven't read the numerous CAFE threads: In the US, CAFE regulations REQUIRE that the oil used to achieve mpg numbers be the ONLY oil recommended in the owner's manual. 20 grades do save a minuscule amount of fuel over thicker grades, so auto makers reap huge financial gains by increasing fuel economy, in tests, a small amount for each vehicle. All well and good, when only looking at mpg.
Why then do these auto makers, with the same engine in other countries, recommend a thicker oil there? If 0- or 5w20 had the same wear results as 20w50(for example) then certainly they'd recommend it in Australia, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? And make sure that oil was available by offering incentives to the auto parts stores. Or perhaps they're not bound by CAFE restrictions in those countries, so the engineers that designed the engines in the first place can put the best grade of oil for longevity into the owner's manual.
Insert discussion about how automakers aren't concerned as much with longevity as they are with profits. Having engines that last 400000 miles (with 30 grade) reduces sales a lot over having engines that last only 150000 miles(with 20 grade). Don't think for a minute that there isn't a department at every manufacturer that calculates this value for their bottom line.
Last little bit - Yes, most people in the US don't keep their vehicles very long, as opposed to other countries, and this may have contributed to the situation. If the average US buyer sees their vehicle as disposable and keeps it only 5 years or for the warranty, they don't really care how long the engine will last. Statistics show that Americans are keeping cars roughly 11.5 years and the miles during that time are solidly under 150k. (2 minute Google search) In most cases at that distance, any engine should still be running despite the grade of oil used.
I know that tig1 has been using M1 5w20 for 40 years. I'd be interested to see if any of those vehicles have gone 200k or more.
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Let's see...last three cars used 5w-20 and didn't use oil at 50K or 100K miles...and only one was a Toyota. Must be some kind of crazy anomaly.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JLTD
Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?
I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.
Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?
I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD
Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?
I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.
Fair enough. I edited my previous post (a lot) and would appreciate your commentary on the edited part.
Originally Posted By: JLTD
Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?
I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.
Fair enough. I edited my previous post (a lot) and would appreciate your commentary on the edited part.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JLTD
Insert discussion about how automakers aren't concerned as much with longevity as they are with profits. Having engines that last 400000 miles (with 30 grade) reduces sales a lot over having engines that last only 150000 miles(with 20 grade). Don't think for a minute that there isn't a department at every manufacturer that calculates this value for their bottom line.
I don't for a minute believe that any car maker has planned obsolescence on their mind when designing an engine. That also smells like a conspiracy theory to me. What benefit would it be to them to have their engines die at 150k? Do you really think someone is going to buy another car from the same car maker if their old one dies earlier than they expected? Certainly not. So it's in their best interest to have a reputation for long lasting engines, like Toyota and Honda have. Even if people trade their cars in sooner, it gives them a good feeling knowing they are buying a car built to last.
Insert discussion about how automakers aren't concerned as much with longevity as they are with profits. Having engines that last 400000 miles (with 30 grade) reduces sales a lot over having engines that last only 150000 miles(with 20 grade). Don't think for a minute that there isn't a department at every manufacturer that calculates this value for their bottom line.
I don't for a minute believe that any car maker has planned obsolescence on their mind when designing an engine. That also smells like a conspiracy theory to me. What benefit would it be to them to have their engines die at 150k? Do you really think someone is going to buy another car from the same car maker if their old one dies earlier than they expected? Certainly not. So it's in their best interest to have a reputation for long lasting engines, like Toyota and Honda have. Even if people trade their cars in sooner, it gives them a good feeling knowing they are buying a car built to last.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
“I know that tig1 has been using M1 5w20 for 40 years. I haven't seen him say what mileage he's racked up on any of his vehicles though.”
It’s stated clearly in his signature.
I'll have to have a look...sorry I missed that detail!
“I know that tig1 has been using M1 5w20 for 40 years. I haven't seen him say what mileage he's racked up on any of his vehicles though.”
It’s stated clearly in his signature.
I'll have to have a look...sorry I missed that detail!
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JLTD
Why then do these auto makers, with the same engine in other countries, recommend a thicker oil there? If 0- or 5w20 had the same wear results as 20w50(for example) then certainly they'd recommend it in Australia, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? And make sure that oil was available by offering incentives to the auto parts stores. Or perhaps they're not bound by CAFE restrictions in those countries, so the engineers that designed the engines in the first place can put the best grade of oil for longevity into the owner's manual.
I still believe that the main reason why thinner oils aren't in those places is because of the mentality of the people there. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, so they just keep recommending oils people in those countries have available to them and are comfortable with.
I just keep coming back to the fact that there are so many people in North America running thinner oils and are still seeing long engine life.
But I also agree that some engines can do better on slightly thicker oils, but generally speaking it's harder driven vehicles like my Corvette or big trucks used for heavy duty towing. But I'd feel totally comfortable running 0w16 oil in a new Toyota Camry being used to go back and forth to the grocery store because I know Toyota is smart and has done the testing, and wants to maintain their reputation of having long lasting engines.
Why then do these auto makers, with the same engine in other countries, recommend a thicker oil there? If 0- or 5w20 had the same wear results as 20w50(for example) then certainly they'd recommend it in Australia, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? And make sure that oil was available by offering incentives to the auto parts stores. Or perhaps they're not bound by CAFE restrictions in those countries, so the engineers that designed the engines in the first place can put the best grade of oil for longevity into the owner's manual.
I still believe that the main reason why thinner oils aren't in those places is because of the mentality of the people there. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, so they just keep recommending oils people in those countries have available to them and are comfortable with.
I just keep coming back to the fact that there are so many people in North America running thinner oils and are still seeing long engine life.
But I also agree that some engines can do better on slightly thicker oils, but generally speaking it's harder driven vehicles like my Corvette or big trucks used for heavy duty towing. But I'd feel totally comfortable running 0w16 oil in a new Toyota Camry being used to go back and forth to the grocery store because I know Toyota is smart and has done the testing, and wants to maintain their reputation of having long lasting engines.
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I don’t see why folks are not comfortable with manufacturers requirements. They’ve done the testing we haven’t.
Because time after time, the ultra thin oils lead to rapid timing chain and balancer chain wear. Especially in hot climates.
I don’t see why folks are not comfortable with manufacturers requirements. They’ve done the testing we haven’t.
Because time after time, the ultra thin oils lead to rapid timing chain and balancer chain wear. Especially in hot climates.
The OP lives in the hottest state in the country. I'm pretty sure he can run some super thick 0W20 and it will be just perfect. Those 115-120 degree days are pretty hot.
I'd run 0W20 in it anyways, since its available. After 0W16 becomes more available, I would then.... continue running the 0W20.
I'd run 0W20 in it anyways, since its available. After 0W16 becomes more available, I would then.... continue running the 0W20.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
@ dblshock...
So what! No one said 40 wouldn't work. But nothing I've run 20 in has consumed oil as you've stated would be inevitable. Stop forcing your beliefs down people's throats. An opinion is one thing, scare tactics, another.
So what! No one said 40 wouldn't work. But nothing I've run 20 in has consumed oil as you've stated would be inevitable. Stop forcing your beliefs down people's throats. An opinion is one thing, scare tactics, another.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I don’t see why folks are not comfortable with manufacturers requirements. They’ve done the testing we haven’t.
Because time after time, the ultra thin oils lead to rapid timing chain and balancer chain wear. Especially in hot climates.
I agree. Extended 10K runs in new cars on super duper thin oil, say bye bye to your timing chain, guides, etc. Especially in Texas, Arizona, etc.
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I don’t see why folks are not comfortable with manufacturers requirements. They’ve done the testing we haven’t.
Because time after time, the ultra thin oils lead to rapid timing chain and balancer chain wear. Especially in hot climates.
I agree. Extended 10K runs in new cars on super duper thin oil, say bye bye to your timing chain, guides, etc. Especially in Texas, Arizona, etc.
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