An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl

I don't think Palmer is just the guy down the road hunting overpopulated, completely non-endangered deer. He may have just been an ignorant participant, but apparently he has been in trouble for lying to a game warden before. And it seems unlikely everyone in this hunting party was just oblivious to the fact this lion was a protected animal that was part of a study. And more importantly, that this animal was used to interacting with people and to an extent probably trusted people.

*snip*


Just so we are clear, ALL of my posts in this thread when hunting is being discussed are regarding animals that will be consumed for food. I am not a fan of trophy hunting and I made that clear on the first page.

I am NOT supportive of Palmer or what he has done.

Trophy hunting legally is 1 thing, intentionally luring a magnificent male lion from protective park to kill for the skin and head to display as trophy is another.

I understand that trophy hunting legally do much more good to preserve wild life in Africa, but the action of Palmer and his guides in killing this lion is totally unacceptable.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Just so we are clear, ALL of my posts in this thread when hunting is being discussed are regarding animals that will be consumed for food. I am not a fan of trophy hunting and I made that clear on the first page.

I am NOT supportive of Palmer or what he has done.


I'm with you on that. Trophy hunting is something that upsets a lot of people. Only those who do it think it's right for some reason (the "trill" is all I can imagine why it's done). If you want a thrill ... go smoke some terrorists who deserve it.

Also, a lot of animals are simply killed for "population control" ... ie, wolves, coyotes, vermin of various types, etc. Is that right or wrong? Supposedly there are experts who control what animals can be hunted or not for various reasons.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette


Its because people enjoy the animals on their property. They enhance the quality of life for some people greatly. Much more than than the meat in your freezer is worth. If you are that poor that you need to hunt for your meat, I'll buy you a freezer full of meat to leave the animals alone.

I do see a parallel here. If a beloved animal wonders off my property and you shoot it for meat. Is it that different than a lion wondering off a reserve? The animal is dead. Is the distinction between throphy and meat that big a deal? It won't make me feel any better that the animal is in your freezer instead of visiting me.



The controlled hunting of deer will not remove them from your property. There will still be deer. In many places, lots of them. More than the local environment can support because the deer's natural predators have all been killed off in much of the US. Having an overabundance of an animal population is NOT a good thing. There is NOT an overabundance of lions, there IS a reason this one was being studied...to maintain the population.

It's not necessarily about being poor. Some people like to eat deer. Would it be better to have deer caged up in stalls for food production so that no deer in the wild is shot? What about the animals who would be killed to stock the freezer you would supply in exchange for wild deer not being killed? The deer is more valuable simply for your entertainment?

From what I have read, this lion did not wander anywhere. It was BAITED with the specific purpose of getting it off the reserve. If you were to set up a legal deer reserve on your property, and someone came along and baited a deer that lived on your property, then I would say yes, that is wrong. If a random, truly wild deer (IE, not one that will walk up to people because it is used to people) just happens to wander through your property, then wanders somewhere else, and someone legally kills it for consumption, that's very different. Are you interacting with these deer and/or rehabilitating them, or are they simply entertainment that walks through your property?

There are rules and regulations with hunting to keep things in check. That is why they are there. Hunting itself is no more morally objectionable than consuming any other animal, they are all living whether it's a deer in your yard you can see, or a cow caged up and suffering silently out of sight and out of mind...it's the way you do it.

 

[Joe_Power]

 

[Mr Nice]

Will this idiot be laughing when a person has a hollow point for him???

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Its because people enjoy the animals on their property.


I enjoy the animals in my HOUSE, those are my PETS. If I lived in the country (which I intend on doing) I will probably hunt deer on that property. Deer are not pets, they are no different than cattle, pigs, moose...etc.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
They enhance the quality of life for some people greatly.

So does a cat or dog, and there's no risk of it being shot for food as these are domesticated pets, not wild animals.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Much more than than the meat in your freezer is worth. If you are that poor that you need to hunt for your meat, I'll buy you a freezer full of meat to leave the animals alone.


I've got at least 5 grand wrapped up in my .308 target/deer gun, it isn't a money problem. It is the idea of getting NATURAL, not FARM RAISED meat from an animal that was able to have a good life in the wild, rather than some poor thing raised for consumption fed God knows what in captivity. If you can wrap your head around that you might start to understand why people hunt. The same goes for wild turkey, pheasant....etc.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I do see a parallel here. If a beloved animal wonders off my property and you shoot it for meat. Is it that different than a lion wondering off a reserve?


Yes, because like the lion in this thread, reserve animals are usually tagged, they BELONG to the reserve. The deer that might go through your backyard is not your property, you have no claim to it, and, unlike the lion, it isn't some sort of potentially endangered species, it is a rapidly breeding source of food, just like those that are butchered in captivity.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The animal is dead. Is the distinction between throphy and meat that big a deal?


Yes, because one is eaten, the other isn't. This isn't complex. One is "wasted" for sport, the other feeds my family.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It won't make me feel any better that the animal is in your freezer instead of visiting me.


Then you need some real pets, ones that don't double as a food source because they are domesticated.

 

[turtlevette]

Anything can be a pet or if not a pet still really special. Some people have pigs as pets. Didn't you know that? Don't you get premium channels. I've seen some neat shows about a deer coming around to play with a dog. Is it not as intelligent as a dog?

So you think its OK to hunt anything as long as you eat it? What about whales?

You have some primal macho need to kill something and you justify it as feeding your family. Its disingenuous.

You guys fished out the cod up in newfy. Overhunting will do the same to other species. Hunting is as outdated an unnecessary as whaling and will end. Probably not in our lifetimes, but eventually.

Oh and you best watch for parasites in wild meat.

 

[Shannow]

turtlevette, you might need to change to grass fed meat...step away from the grain fed stuff...I think your Omega 6/3 ratios are not optimal.

Your arguments (as usual) are all over the shop, drag a meme in here and there, bambi is is all of our friends, and only wants to cuddle our puppies.

Hey, PETA think whale is a better alternative in some of their advertising, but they admit that they are trying to shock people into not eating meat full stop.

There's a difference between hunting, and coaxing a protected animal out of a protected area, and torturing it.

You and your kind always will use the attrocities (which no-one here has ever tried to justify if you read their posts) to justify controlling the actions of others for an action or past-time that you disagree with, or plain and simple don't understand.

You demonstrate the lack of understanding with the parasites comment...hunters know that stuff...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Anything can be a pet or if not a pet still really special. Some people have pigs as pets. Didn't you know that? Don't you get premium channels. I've seen some neat shows about a deer coming around to play with a dog. Is it not as intelligent as a dog?


It is not domesticated like a dog or cat. Like the folks that bring wild animals into their home and then are shocked when they get mauled by them or killed. We have hundreds of years of domesticating the animals that legitimately qualify as pets, a deer is not a pet. A pig (which are quite intelligent but apparently that isn't stopping you from eating bacon) can also be readily domesticated. A raccoon? Not so much.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
So you think its OK to hunt anything as long as you eat it? What about whales?


I've never eaten whale and have no desire to eat whale, so no, it would not be on my list, nor would your dog (if you had one), as that is recognized as a PET. Though most people in North America don't consume dog anyways, though I believe they do in parts of Asia. But they are not domesticated pets like they are here.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You have some primal macho need to kill something and you justify it as feeding your family. Its disingenuous.


No, it isn't. What is disingenuous is this facade you are putting on; the high horse you feel you are able to ride because you don't actually kill the animals you eat. It wreaks of hypocrisy and double standard. If you are this hard about this topic you should become a vegan, because that's the ONLY way you have ANY ground to stand on, the rest of your gum flapping is just flaccid nonsense because you eat animals, you just don't want to see them or think of seeing them being killed, and that's weak.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You guys fished out the cod up in newfy. Overhunting will do the same to other species.


Do you even think before typing this nonsense? The grand banks were over-fished not by Canadians, not by "you guys", but by every bloody country that could get a boat in the water. And since it is very difficult to farm fish in the friggin' ocean, yes, population decline was the result. This wasn't some newfie and his buds out in a skiff dragging the odd cod ashore (the equivalent of hunting), this was TRAWLERS dragging them out of the water so that folks like you could eat them. Gee, that sounds a lot like how you get your beef and pork eh?

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Hunting is as outdated an unnecessary as whaling and will end.


You do realize that whaling and hunting have absolutely nothing in common other than the death of a mammal right? Similar to your cod example, you really aren't thinking before typing this garbage. It again, isn't Jim Bob and One Eyed Joe out there slaying big blue to come home and drag ashore and eat for the next ten years, these animals were killed for mass consumption or for components that were to be used in glues, lubricants and other industrial applications. When is the last time you saw some guys mass-slaughtering deer to harvest their bodies for that type of purpose? IT DOES NOT HAPPEN! This is like a veritable strawman festival you've got going on here

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Probably not in our lifetimes, but eventually.

Oh and you best watch for parasites in wild meat.


Doubtful. The double-standard toting hypocrites will continue to wage their senseless crusade and the folks that "get it" will continue on, whether they hunt or not. Unless the world goes snap-vegan, you are living a pipe dream thinking there is anything that is going to happen to hunting.

And my wild meat is just fine. And delicious. And probably significantly "safer" than whatever chemicals and garbage what you've bought at the grocery store has in it.

 

[OVERKILL]

For all the folks like turtlevette towing the hypocrite line:

This is OK:

And these guys (who could certainly eat out of your hand if you let them) are going to end up just like those pictured above:

But apparently this is NOT OK:

even though he's going to end up like this:

And he didn't have to suffer living in captivity, fed God knows what.

Ridiculous.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Oh and you best watch for parasites in wild meat.

That's why I cook moose, elk, and antelope to well done.

 

[grampi]

While I don't agree with the killing of these animals, there seems to be a lot more outrage over a dead lion than there is over the selling of baby body parts by Planned Parenthood...have we really become this bass-ackwards of a society?

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
For all the folks like turtlevette towing the hypocrite line:

This is OK:

And these guys (who could certainly eat out of your hand if you let them) are going to end up just like those pictured above:

But apparently this is NOT OK:

even though he's going to end up like this:

And he didn't have to suffer living in captivity, fed God knows what.

Ridiculous.



Exactly. Shooting/ eating wild game is arguably more "fair" than buying meat at the store.

Unless youre turtlevette and feel anything from the store didnt die..

 

[Joel_MD]

Originally Posted By: dave123
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Only a jerkwad would kill a Lion just for fun.

I guess that make me a jerkwad been called worse.

Being called a name by an Internet tough guy is nothing to worry about. Keep on hunting if you enjoy it.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: turtlevette


Its because people enjoy the animals on their property. They enhance the quality of life for some people greatly. Much more than than the meat in your freezer is worth. If you are that poor that you need to hunt for your meat, I'll buy you a freezer full of meat to leave the animals alone.

I do see a parallel here. If a beloved animal wonders off my property and you shoot it for meat. Is it that different than a lion wondering off a reserve? The animal is dead. Is the distinction between throphy and meat that big a deal? It won't make me feel any better that the animal is in your freezer instead of visiting me.



The controlled hunting of deer will not remove them from your property. There will still be deer. In many places, lots of them. More than the local environment can support because the deer's natural predators have all been killed off in much of the US. Having an overabundance of an animal population is NOT a good thing. There is NOT an overabundance of lions, there IS a reason this one was being studied...to maintain the population.

It's not necessarily about being poor. Some people like to eat deer. Would it be better to have deer caged up in stalls for food production so that no deer in the wild is shot? What about the animals who would be killed to stock the freezer you would supply in exchange for wild deer not being killed? The deer is more valuable simply for your entertainment?

From what I have read, this lion did not wander anywhere. It was BAITED with the specific purpose of getting it off the reserve. If you were to set up a legal deer reserve on your property, and someone came along and baited a deer that lived on your property, then I would say yes, that is wrong. If a random, truly wild deer (IE, not one that will walk up to people because it is used to people) just happens to wander through your property, then wanders somewhere else, and someone legally kills it for consumption, that's very different. Are you interacting with these deer and/or rehabilitating them, or are they simply entertainment that walks through your property?

There are rules and regulations with hunting to keep things in check. That is why they are there. Hunting itself is no more morally objectionable than consuming any other animal, they are all living whether it's a deer in your yard you can see, or a cow caged up and suffering silently out of sight and out of mind...it's the way you do it.


Excellent post. You get it.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I have been amazed at the news coverage of this event. It really seems a stupid guy with more money than sense got seriously ripped off by some creative natives. They'll be prosecuted but I don't see where he did anything wrong. No different than if I hire a fishing guide and he keeps a fish out of the slot limits here in FL. HE gets busted if the FWC catches him, I don't!

So many folks I know are going crazy over this while sitting down to steaks, chops, venison, or chicken for dinner. Sounds like someone needs to tour the slaughterhouses...

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: grampi
While I don't agree with the killing of these animals, there seems to be a lot more outrage over a dead lion than there is over the selling of baby body parts by Planned Parenthood...have we really become this bass-ackwards of a society?


Yes. Yes, we have.

Our crazy legal system depends on people like our pal, who can be persuaded to believe almost anything.

Back sorta OT: I never cared for the taste of game animals. Too many purines and pyrimidenes in the meat IIRC from my ag school days. Catfish or cattle, make mine corn fed, please.

 

[Mystic]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I have been amazed at the news coverage of this event. It really seems a stupid guy with more money than sense got seriously ripped off by some creative natives. They'll be prosecuted but I don't see where he did anything wrong. No different than if I hire a fishing guide and he keeps a fish out of the slot limits here in FL. HE gets busted if the FWC catches him, I don't!

So many folks I know are going crazy over this while sitting down to steaks, chops, venison, or chicken for dinner. Sounds like someone needs to tour the slaughterhouses...


We were given a tour of the slaughterhouse when we were in, I think, the 6th grade. So I have seen it. I also knew two guys who worked in the slaughterhouse. What I seem to remember the best is the smell of the blood.

Pretty much the same thing. If a hunter is a good shot he/she should be able to drop an animal pretty quickly. And then the deer, elk, or whatever is slaughtered and people consume the meat. No real difference than animals being slaughtered in a slaughterhouse and probably, in the case of wild game, a lot less chance of there being nasty chemicals in the food. Of course there is always the people who can't shoot or shoot another hunter, etc.

Sometimes animals don't die fast enough in the slaughterhouse. A guy who worked in the slaughterhouse told me about the experience they had when they tried to kill a steer using Kosher methods.

There are a few people who are vegans but most people in this country eat meat. There they are eating steaks, chicken, ham, etc., and putting down people who hunt deer, elk, etc. And in fact deer and elk have to be hunted because otherwise their populations will get out of control and they will starve to death.

Life is a little different in the country on farms and ranches compared to life in the big cities. I had cousins who owned farms. I still have a childhood memory of an aunt taking the heads off of a couple of chickens with an axe. But those chickens had lived a much better life than the 'factory chickens' and their death was no worse than the deaths of the 'factory chickens.'

I have nothing against hunting by hunters who are professional, can shoot, and who consume the meat. I do have a problem about shooting a lion that was on a preserve where the animals are supposed to be protected and the lion being lured off of the preserve. And then people trying to destroy and conceal the tracking collar.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Oh and you best watch for parasites in wild meat.

That's why I cook moose, elk, and antelope to well done.


Well done tastes like nothing. The real way to eat a steak is cold in the middle. It has nothing to do with whether I eat meat. I'll eat you guys under the table. It has to do with preserving nature.

Was Cecil a pet? If not then by Overkills standards that makes him food. Its a slippery slope.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I have been amazed at the news coverage of this event. It really seems a stupid guy with more money than sense got seriously ripped off by some creative natives. They'll be prosecuted but I don't see where he did anything wrong. No different than if I hire a fishing guide and he keeps a fish out of the slot limits here in FL. HE gets busted if the FWC catches him, I don't!

So many folks I know are going crazy over this while sitting down to steaks, chops, venison, or chicken for dinner. Sounds like someone needs to tour the slaughterhouses...

This!!! The more I read about this the more I believe the Dentist is not the demon even I thought he was.

Most mass media news is really designed to evoke feelings that will get folks to follow this media created snow storm.

And of course mass media is aims mainly at the slow thinkers who fit this lemming model.