The death of the auto enthusiast.

[andrew_j]

Technology has been best thing IMHO for any hobbyist. You can find any niche out there and find people who care (aka BITOG) and learn and interact with them. Honestly the tech for BITOG was way outdated (forums) however works.

This tech started with internet in late 90’s and just keeps getting better. I disagree using technology replaced hobbies.

 

[PandaBear]

IMO modern cars are frustrating in their reliability.

Wife's prius, 90k, doesn't burn a drop of oil. Am thankful for that. But a phantom got into the software keeping her from having heat. HEAT! If one shut the car off and waited two minutes, for the buzz-click under the dash, something rebooted and then heat returned. I followed the codes, changed an actuator, still did it. Changed the "brain", still did it. Then, knock on wood, it seems to have stopped.

This is way, way less satisfying than having a leaking water pump, changing it, filling the radiator, warming it up, and confirming that it doesn't leak anymore. It also compels the owner or driver to wonder WHY they elected to have a computer run something that had manual operation for 100 years. I'm not against change, I'm against change for stoopid reasons.

The hard parts seem reliable enough... piston rings, ball joints. That makes it even more aggravating that ancillary systems are garbage-- you can imagine the stripped, base model of 30 years ago not having these issues. Maybe it's a planned obsolescence thing.

And this is on one of the more reliable brands. I wouldn't want to deal with BMW or Mercedes' wiring network or software driven whatevers just to have the privlege of driving a better sorted out chassis.

The last "low hanging fruit" car is probably Yaris or Fit. Everything is basic and people don't expect much from it so the manufacturers didn't either. Most of the econobox today would be considered top trim decades ago.

Mazda's skyactiv is probably a "modded" car from the 90s in stock these days. Factory header being those 4-2-1, high compression, etc. If factory already "modded" your car then there isn't too much you can leverage without failing emission.

I love today's cars, just that they are not as big of a cool culture as before. It is like, when you already can buy a really nice house you wouldn't pay as much attention to power tools for remodeling and home improvement anymore kind of thing.

 

[Carmudgeon]

C/D can be that cheap these days? I remember feeling like I was stealing it for like $12 a year a long time ago.

Not any longer.

I've bought magazine subscriptions through DiscountMags for years, and during their sales, C/D and others could be had for $5. At that price, I'd buy for 2- or 3-year terms, but opted for annual more recently, due to the uncertainty and cutbacks in the industry.

DM don't offer the print version now, only digital, for $20/yr.

A print/digital annual sub is $15/yr, direct from the publisher. And it seems they've quietly cut back the print schedule, so it's now bi-monthly, regardless of print or digital, down from ten/year. Haven't seen any announcements to that effect. I think this puts the nail in the coffin for me.

It's a shame. Been reading the car rags since I was a kid, and used to get C/D, R&T, and AutoWeek regularly. My dad used to pick up Quattroruote on occasion. I couldn't read Italian, but appreciated the pictures. I later got into the expensive habit of buying the UK mags like Car, Performance Car, and Evo.

I guess now, I'll probably only pick up the occasional print copy before a flight, for old times' sake.

In broader terms, I'd be curious to know what the user and traffic trends are here, for this site, as one data point at least. It's clear there are still new users coming aboard.

 

[OVERKILL]

I think the housing crisis for younger folks contributes. When I think about my 68 cougar, the cost in parts and tools over they years hasn’t been too bad, but I’ve often had to store it at relatives or try to find storage when working around the country. That had a much bigger impact on my wrench time.

This is a big contributor.

I got into the car scene in the early 2000's. Everybody's living situation was different, most of us were in our early 20's or 30's, and that really dictated where everybody was in respect to housing. I was renting, paying like $575/month for a 2-bedroom apartment. A buddy of mine was my roommate and we were both computer and car enthusiasts.

Cars were pretty cheap, I bought an '87 Mustang GT for a few thousand. It was healthy, though the body wasn't great, particularly the door posts (T-top car). Did the subframe connectors and reinforced the torque boxes. Dumped lots of money into that car, but it was a cheap foundation to start with and you could do lots with a 302HO due to the massive amount of aftermarket support. Engine bay was accessible, I did heads/cam/intake in the car port of my buddy's place over a weekend.

Some of the guys that were a bit older already had houses and their own garages, which made things easier. Those of us who were renting, we'd be doing stuff in the yards or garages of the parents of other friends. Everybody would eventually buy a house though, for the most part.

When we bought our place, it had a carriage house for a garage (century home) which worked for my 2nd project, which I effectively abandoned when I bought my M5. Most of us had kids at that point and life got in the way, so we stopped meeting up and the car scene for us pretty much petered out for the most part. I think I have one friend left that is still into the foxbody scene?

My eldest is coming into the same age bracket I was in when I got into cars. If he moves out (he lives in our attic) rent is now at minimum, triple what I was paying. Housing prices have quadrupled since we bought our place, making that a significant barrier to entry. Gasoline is also very expensive, so it is not possible to just get in and drive for a few hours "just because" like we used to. I remember one night a friend of mine and a couple of girls drove to Ottawa for no reason other than we were bored.

He has already cut his teeth on his ATV, wrenching on that, and is learning as he goes on the early 2000's Ranger he picked up. So, he's learning the basics. But there's no real car scene for him to get into. People his age aren't doing heads/cam/intake swaps or adding nitrous/superchargers/turbos to early 2000's Mustangs. They are a PITA to work on, more expensive, and the young adults just don't have the disposable income we did at that age, because life is so much more expensive and the living situation that much more precarious in terms of both access (finding a place to rent or buy) and cost (pricing for an apartment the size of my kitchen is like $2K/month in the GTA and you are looking at 500-600K for a tiny house in a crappy neighbourhood).

So, young adults are staying at home with their parents longer. The car scene is also less attractive due to:
- Cars being more difficult to work on
- Gains in output are more difficult to achieve on cars that are reasonably affordable
- Gasoline is considerably more expensive
- Aftermarket support has dwindled
- Fewer people have access to places where they can perform the modifications

So, IMHO, it's a combination of factors. On top of that, these kids are being told in school that they are killing the planet by driving and none of them can afford EV's, let alone performance-oriented ones.

 

[IndyIan]

This is a big contributor.

I got into the car scene in the early 2000's. Everybody's living situation was different, most of us were in our early 20's or 30's, and that really dictated where everybody was in respect to housing. I was renting, paying like $575/month for a 2-bedroom apartment. A buddy of mine was my roommate and we were both computer and car enthusiasts.

Cars were pretty cheap, I bought an '87 Mustang GT for a few thousand. It was healthy, though the body wasn't great, particularly the door posts (T-top car). Did the subframe connectors and reinforced the torque boxes. Dumped lots of money into that car, but it was a cheap foundation to start with and you could do lots with a 302HO due to the massive amount of aftermarket support. Engine bay was accessible, I did heads/cam/intake in the car port of my buddy's place over a weekend.

Some of the guys that were a bit older already had houses and their own garages, which made things easier. Those of us who were renting, we'd be doing stuff in the yards or garages of the parents of other friends. Everybody would eventually buy a house though, for the most part.

When we bought our place, it had a carriage house for a garage (century home) which worked for my 2nd project, which I effectively abandoned when I bought my M5. Most of us had kids at that point and life got in the way, so we stopped meeting up and the car scene for us pretty much petered out for the most part. I think I have one friend left that is still into the foxbody scene?

My eldest is coming into the same age bracket I was in when I got into cars. If he moves out (he lives in our attic) rent is now at minimum, triple what I was paying. Housing prices have quadrupled since we bought our place, making that a significant barrier to entry. Gasoline is also very expensive, so it is not possible to just get in and drive for a few hours "just because" like we used to. I remember one night a friend of mine and a couple of girls drove to Ottawa for no reason other than we were bored.

He has already cut his teeth on his ATV, wrenching on that, and is learning as he goes on the early 2000's Ranger he picked up. So, he's learning the basics. But there's no real car scene for him to get into. People his age aren't doing heads/cam/intake swaps or adding nitrous/superchargers/turbos to early 2000's Mustangs. They are a PITA to work on, more expensive, and the young adults just don't have the disposable income we did at that age, because life is so much more expensive and the living situation that much more precarious in terms of both access (finding a place to rent or buy) and cost (pricing for an apartment the size of my kitchen is like $2K/month in the GTA and you are looking at 500-600K for a tiny house in a crappy neighbourhood).

So, young adults are staying at home with their parents longer. The car scene is also less attractive due to:
- Cars being more difficult to work on
- Gains in output are more difficult to achieve on cars that are reasonably affordable
- Gasoline is considerably more expensive
- Aftermarket support has dwindled
- Fewer people have access to places where they can perform the modifications

So, IMHO, it's a combination of factors. On top of that, these kids are being told in school that they are killing the planet by driving and none of them can afford EV's, let alone performance-oriented ones.

When were the last cars with a decent power to weight ratio, but in a very DIY improvable chassis/suspension/brakes package? The last 5.0 Mustang?
Also in the late 90's, you could really tune up a 5.0 in your garage, get some sticky tires and probably not find many stock cars (at any price) around that were faster at a stoplight?
Now there is an abundance of AWD high hp machines that can put most rwd vehicles(modded or not) in the rear view mirror for a block or two with no mods or driver skill at all. All you need is the cash to buy one.
I think there's still guys that are car enthusiasts but modding most new sporty cars isn't worth the money or time as the manufacturer engineers are now getting the vast majority of the drivetrain performance available, and adding a turbo to a modern car is rarely cheaper than just buying another car with the hp/weight you want. I guess camber plates are a nice mod for cars with strut front suspension, and brakes, but that's only for autocross and track time which not many people do.

 

[alarmguy]

Facebook and other online groups are thriving.

Agree, its where I have to go now too.
Do you know why though? It's because hobbyists no longer can talk to Joe Public and his friends on his block. Hobbys have been abandoned. Man, I must have over 2000 (and still growing)homes where I live. I think I am the only one who changes my car and truck oil. Boat too, I never see anyone doing their own, except me.
Let's not even talk about cutting my own lawn! *LOL* Im sure there are others but I am still waiting to see someone.
I think one day I saw someone washing a car, forgot where, yet everyone's cars and trucks are always shiny. They get monthly subscriptions to the car washes here.
Motorcycles I will find some that do but even some of them seem surprised I wrench my own bike for maintenance stuff. Granted there are many more that wrench their bikes than cars.

But with a world connecting up to 9 billion people you can certainly find countless minds and interests like yours. (Even people in this forum are from multiple countries) They no longer exist in enough numbers in your community. It shows why stores supporting these interests dont exist anymore. It has to be on the internet, there isnt enough local business.

 

[Torrid]

Agree, its where I have to go now too.
Do you know why though? It's because hobbyists no longer can talk to Joe Public and his friends on his block. Hobbys have been abandoned. Man, I must have over 2000 (and still growing)homes where I live. I think I am the only one who changes my car and truck oil. Boat too, I never see anyone doing their own, except me.
Let's not even talk about cutting my own lawn! *LOL* Im sure there are others but I am still waiting to see someone.
I think one day I saw someone washing a car, forgot where, yet everyone's cars and trucks are always shiny. They get monthly subscriptions to the car washes here.
Motorcycles I will find some that do but even some of them seem surprised I wrench my own bike for maintenance stuff. Granted there are many more that wrench their bikes than cars.

But with a world connecting up to 9 billion people you can certainly find countless minds and interests like yours. (Even people in this forum are from multiple countries) They no longer exist in enough numbers in your community. It shows why stores supporting these interests dont exist anymore. It has to be on the internet, there isnt enough local business.

All you mention are still normal here. Plenty of people on my street wrenching, washing, and mowing. Might just be a small town Midwest thing though. I live in a town of 16k people so that may be small to many on here.

 

[Allaneddie]

You have to find the right group. All the gearheads who autocross with our club are certified car nuts.

 

[wings&wheels]

You have to find the right group. All the gearheads who autocross with our club are certified car nuts.

Or marque specific clubs, regional clubs, etc. While the auto enthusiast culture may not be what it was, it exists but maybe a bit fragmented or diluted. Me, I think the 'face in an ipad' culture, hobby, addiction or whatever you call it has had a negative impact to 'hands on' hobbies, and that is sad. Now I'm going to go throw some kids off my lawn

Actually, I am not. I am going to attempt to remove a BMW cylinder head stud that snapped on me yesterday....should stick to ipads.

 

[Blackstack]

When were the last cars with a decent power to weight ratio, but in a very DIY improvable chassis/suspension/brakes package? The last 5.0 Mustang?
Also in the late 90's, you could really tune up a 5.0 in your garage, get some sticky tires and probably not find many stock cars (at any price) around that were faster at a stoplight?
Now there is an abundance of AWD high hp machines that can put most rwd vehicles(modded or not) in the rear view mirror for a block or two with no mods or driver skill at all. All you need is the cash to buy one.
I think there's still guys that are car enthusiasts but modding most new sporty cars isn't worth the money or time as the manufacturer engineers are now getting the vast majority of the drivetrain performance available, and adding a turbo to a modern car is rarely cheaper than just buying another car with the hp/weight you want. I guess camber plates are a nice mod for cars with strut front suspension, and brakes, but that's only for autocross and track time which not many people do.

Now there is an abundance of AWD high hp machines that can put most rwd vehicles(modded or not) in the rear view mirror for a block or two with no mods or driver skill at all. All you need is the cash to buy one.

And you don't need much cash either. My 2012 Taurus SHO with 131,000 miles on it would bring maybe $10,000-$12,000 on a good day. Stock it's 365 hp at the crank. Colder plugs, colder thermostat, 3-bar MAP sensor, K&N drop in air filter and a tune all for around $800 and I'm at approx. 525 hp at the crank. This past summer I pulled up next to some dildo in a Hellcat Widebody with my wife, son and about 100 lbs. of crap in my trunk. I blew his doors off and he didn't get around my until I was going 72 mph. I figure it would have been around 80-85 mph if my trunk was empty and I was alone in the car. He then proceeded to wave at me "bye bye" when he finally got around me in his $70,000 car like he was clearly the big winner in this stop light drag race. He pulls into a turn lane a mile or so ahead and I give him a friendly beep beep "nice race" of the horn and he proceeds to flip us all off. (I know, I know shocking behavior from a Dodge owner right) Yeah, I'd be a bit butthurt too if I paid that kind of money and was too ignorant to realize the 1/4 mile times quoted for these 4,500 lbs vehicles are on prepped tracks with drag radials. It's probably been repo'd by the bank now anyways and my 10+ year old Dad cruiser/family truckster is long paid off and sitting in the garage. Or alternatively, swap a junk yard twin-turbo LS into a Fox Body Mustang for under $10,000 and do the same to the Hellcat/Demon/Chargers on the street. IMO, 90% of the Hellcat/Demon/Charger guys can't afford to build a car, they just can afford to make large payments for a while. Ridiculous.

 

[Fitter30]

I know there are many like you. But they are/were the most dangerous and noisy things that were on the road at that time. You couldn't carry on a conversation with somebody in the (sparse) rear seat.

They were cheap back in the 60's.....

And 70's had a 74 super beetle yes noisy but at 26 bought used. Noise wasn't a problem heat was. In 77 gas mileage was.

 

[daves87rs]

Hobbies are dying because people have no money. Well, except old folks and billionaires…….

Previous generations didn’t have to start with large debts, or have to deal with continuous increases in cost (ie profit) I could still afford to pay for college, have a car, and hobbies while going to college in working n the 90s. Nothing is cheap for people to afford. Even during the early 00s, you still had plenty of choices in the under 20k one could buy. Or cheaper used cars. People could still afford to mod their cars to their liking, even if it took a little while, lol. Most folks can barely afford to live somewhere and eat, making any hobby pretty much impossible.

Sad to say, most folks one luxury/hobby is their phone. It’s why you see them on them all the time. If they have a little more dough, maybe a little gaming too. Their phone keeps track of what few events they might be able to afford….The only way hobbies will make ANY comeback (Including cars) if disposable income makes a comeback. Gets kinda sad when apps have to be your hobby….


The world needs to be kinder, less divided place. Then folks will be able to find hobbies that they like together, and the phones might become boring again…….

I know people like to laugh at the old F&F crowd and their crazy riced out cars- but it was truly some of the last times you saw all different types of people get together for love of cars……

 

[OVERKILL]

And you don't need much cash either. My 2012 Taurus SHO with 131,000 miles on it would bring maybe $10,000-$12,000 on a good day. Stock it's 365 hp at the crank. Colder plugs, colder thermostat, 3-bar MAP sensor, K&N drop in air filter and a tune all for around $800 and I'm at approx. 525 hp at the crank. This past summer I pulled up next to some dildo in a Hellcat Widebody with my wife, son and about 100 lbs. of crap in my trunk. I blew his doors off and he didn't get around my until I was going 72 mph. I figure it would have been around 80-85 mph if my trunk was empty and I was alone in the car. He then proceeded to wave at me "bye bye" when he finally got around me in his $70,000 car like he was clearly the big winner in this stop light drag race. He pulls into a turn lane a mile or so ahead and I give him a friendly beep beep "nice race" of the horn and he proceeds to flip us all off. (I know, I know shocking behavior from a Dodge owner right) Yeah, I'd be a bit butthurt too if I paid that kind of money and was too ignorant to realize the 1/4 mile times quoted for these 4,500 lbs vehicles are on prepped tracks with drag radials. It's probably been repo'd by the bank now anyways and my 10+ year old Dad cruiser/family truckster is long paid off and sitting in the garage. Or alternatively, swap a junk yard twin-turbo LS into a Fox Body Mustang for under $10,000 and do the same to the Hellcat/Demon/Chargers on the street. IMO, 90% of the Hellcat/Demon/Charger guys can't afford to build a car, they just can afford to make large payments for a while. Ridiculous.

Curious as to if characterizing him in this manner is due to him flipping you off at the end of the encounter, or were you stereotyping him to your spouse and son from the get-go and he just proceeded to fill that stereotype for you with his post-race gesture?

All the Hellcat owners I know are quite wealthy Not saying that's the case for everybody in the area, I don't know all of them of course, and I wouldn't want to speak for your area, particularly if you have intimate demographic knowledge with respect to Hellcat ownership, which I assume you must with the strong investment in stereotype employed in your post.

There are a few posseur R/T's and even V6's tarted up to look like Kitties locally, just like we used to see Cobra badges on the V6 cars back when I was still into the Mustang scene. I personally wouldn't be inclined to assume that the guy I had pull up to me and blip the throttle a few times and then roar off in his Trackhawk was 10 steps away from the repo man, given those I know who own them, but as I said, perhaps your area is different.

 

[OVERKILL]

When were the last cars with a decent power to weight ratio, but in a very DIY improvable chassis/suspension/brakes package? The last 5.0 Mustang?
Also in the late 90's, you could really tune up a 5.0 in your garage, get some sticky tires and probably not find many stock cars (at any price) around that were faster at a stoplight?

Yup, that's why most of us used to roll around on ET Streets or the BFG drag radials, lol. My car was pretty mild, never got into power adders, though I did consider it. It was ~325HP flywheel, but, in a light RWD car with no ABS and no traction control, with a stick and grabby clutch (Centerforce DF), it was a hoot.

Stock block could take ~525-550RWHP with a blower (more with a turbo). Which put you deep into the 11's, or high 10's if you knew what you were doing. One of the guys was on Pinks All Out with his stripper '82 Capri with most of the powertrain from his '89 LX notch and that car ran 9.8 I think? Been a few years now. He had a dart block, AFR's, my old TFS-R intake, but I think he swapped in the box upper, and I think it had a YSI-trim on it? don't quote me on that.

We had a number of pretty fast Fox's around town. There were 3x that were all mid-11's that regularly rolled on a drag radial. The Bensfort scene collapsed when the "stunting" laws came into effect, though you'd still see the odd light-to-light. The guy with the car that went on Pinks is the only one I know who is still really into it, everybody else, like me, kind of just drifted away from it. A few of us get together for ATV'ing every once in a while, and a few of us also got into guns.

 

[CKN]

All you mention are still normal here. Plenty of people on my street wrenching, washing, and mowing. Might just be a small town Midwest thing though. I live in a town of 16k people so that may be small to many on here.

What's the average age of those "wrenching"? What's the average of the vehicles they are working on?

 

[CourierDriver]

What's the average age of those "wrenching"? What's the average of the vehicles they are working on?

Im 77, no wrenching here, not even on my motorcycle,,well oil changes on it..retired neighborhood, lots of folks in the 90s now...

 

[PandaBear]

Hobbies are dying because people have no money. Well, except old folks and billionaires…….

Previous generations didn’t have to start with large debts, or have to deal with continuous increases in cost (ie profit) I could still afford to pay for college, have a car, and hobbies while going to college in working n the 90s. Nothing is cheap for people to afford. Even during the early 00s, you still had plenty of choices in the under 20k one could buy. Or cheaper used cars. People could still afford to mod their cars to their liking, even if it took a little while, lol. Most folks can barely afford to live somewhere and eat, making any hobby pretty much impossible.

Sad to say, most folks one luxury/hobby is their phone. It’s why you see them on them all the time. If they have a little more dough, maybe a little gaming too. Their phone keeps track of what few events they might be able to afford….The only way hobbies will make ANY comeback (Including cars) if disposable income makes a comeback. Gets kinda sad when apps have to be your hobby….


The world needs to be kinder, less divided place. Then folks will be able to find hobbies that they like together, and the phones might become boring again…….

I know people like to laugh at the old F&F crowd and their crazy riced out cars- but it was truly some of the last times you saw all different types of people get together for love of cars……

There was a saying GenX and older pay for things and Millenials and younger pay for experiences.

They probably pay more for kitchen appliances, vacations, eating out, gym membership and classes than cars and stereos.

 

[tbm5690]

There was a saying GenX and older pay for things and Millenials and younger pay for experiences.

I would say by in large this is true, but then after paying for all their "necessary" experiences the younger generations wonder why they can't afford a home. (Spoken by a millennial who has the ability to say "no" to things to meet savings goals...but I'm probably a boomer at heart.)

 

[72C10]

I dunno. I feel like it's one of the best times to be an auto enthusiast. You have so much information at your fingertips. In the past you didn't have a choice but to learn from someone close to you or learning by your own mistakes. Now you have thousands of teachers via the internet.

The only problem is everything is so expensive, and cars are only getting moreso.

For anyone looking for a good enthusiast magazine, Grassroots Motorports produces one. It's the only one I subscribe to.

 

[PandaBear]

I dunno. I feel like it's one of the best times to be an auto enthusiast. You have so much information at your fingertips. In the past you didn't have a choice but to learn from someone close to you or learning by your own mistakes. Now you have thousands of teachers via the internet.

The only problem is everything is so expensive, and cars are only getting moreso.

For anyone looking for a good enthusiast magazine, Grassroots Motorports produces one. It's the only one I subscribe to.

I think, most cars are so good now there is not much you can "mod" and everything is about trade offs now instead of purchase price.

Want an SUV? give up handling. Want a sport car? give up space. Want fuel economy or HP? pick one only. Want the cool and quiet of an EV and the instant torque? accept range anxiety.

Everyone can afford things like those now if they want it. People may get excited when and after they buy it but there is no journey to get there, just open the wallet. It is hard to build a hobby if everything is already done (since Mazda skyactiv use all the old school tricks in modding for OEM), or too delicate and not cost effective for mod at home like adding turbo, or just not in fashion anymore like adding spoiler and large muffler (when the cool one is quiet like EV with minimalist styling).

Also when your mom just buy a Tesla and win a street race against you in a modded Civic, it is kind of hard to get the motivation to mod it anymore. Have a friend who said his local race track now start separating EV from regular gas car on the track because of people in gas car not being happy about the EV torque and there is nothing they can do about their own gas track cars.