What happened to the thin oil movement?

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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Doublehaul
While I don't have really care I'll add some venom. I have a '16 Super a duty with a 6.2. With no physical changes in the power plant FoMoCo has changed their recommendation from 5w20 to a 5w30.

And we are seeing other switches elsewhere. I think North American manufacturers are finding out what European manufacturers did years ago. You just don't extend the OCIs as much as you can and have as your specification the thinnest ILSAC oil on the shelf. That may work in a lot of applications, but it may not work so well across the board, particularly if you got an application that's shearing the oil one way or another.



Good point!
 
The old Audi 200 Turbo I had is a bit of an example. It called for whatever SJ oil was on the shelf at the time, all the way from 5w-20 to 20w-50 to monogrades, depending upon ambient, with references to be cautious with things like 5w-20 in sustained high speed driving, but also warnings not to panic the second the thermometer rose a bit. There were no other specifications at the time, just the current API specification.

In any case, it had a 12,500 km severe service interval, which might be a bit optimistic. Audi and others had some problems with the basic API stuff, especially with these extended drains, so what did we see? We saw TBN and HTHS minimums, among various other components to the specifications.

I was quite satisfied to use an HDEO in there and/or shorter intervals as required. As it was, the previous owner did not, and I've posted pics here before of the coking and other deposits that resulted.

Thin oil specs or basic API/ILSAC specs are fine. Just match them appropriately to your application and your expectations. I don't think it's feasible to just grab the cheapest 5w-20 off the shelf and run it in any application out there to 10,000 miles, just because thin is in and we want to get the life out of our oil.
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My biggest beef was the one size fits all mentality that some of the mfgs. had. Especially when one or two model years prior the identical engine spec'd a thicker oil. Now several years later they are offering more than one viscosity for that engine, case in point my Jeep. Now I can keep one oil in my stash for my entire fleet, 5W30 making life a bit easier.

I grew up during a time where you matched the oil to the climate and conditions, and had no problem doing so.
 
The thin oil movement was started by the automakers, IMHO. All during the 90s, the average car owner became accustomed to walking into the auto store or Walmart and reaching for 5W-30, because that's what was called for in a lot of owner's manuals, or 10W-30. Just when Americans were used to this, along came Honda, who started calling for 5W-20 in their vehicles. Then, Ford followed suit, and Toyota. So, now, you have owners wanting to follow the viscosity recommended in the manual.

For me, it all boils down to application, engine type, and how the vehicle will be used. In Honda Civic, Accords, Toyota Camrys, Corollas, etc., I think it is possible to have long engine life with 5W-20 or 0W-20. And even minivans fit into this.
But, have a demanding engine, or towing heavy loads with a truck, automakers usually call for a heavier oil.
The newer Tundras list 5W-20 in the owner's manual, but, Toyota says if towing in hot weather, 5W-30 can be used to provide better protection.

Look at it this way, how many turbo-charged vehicles are the automakers recommending using either 0W-20 or 5W-20 in them?

I think it's interesting Ford is now going back to recommending 5W-30 in some of their newest vehicles.

It all comes down to engine and application, some vehicles can do okay with thin oils, or others cannot. What oil viscosity is GM putting in the new Corvette as they leave the factory, and what do they recommend in the owner's manual? Same thing with Ford and the new Mustangs.
 
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Another thing to note are the limp modes on various vehicles. My G37 (and the 370Z) will cut power when the oil gets above a certain temperature, and it's reputed to not take a great deal of effort to get to that temperature, because the sump temperatures are very hot as it is in these vehicles. Of course, that's never an issue with me. I can't see me ever hitting that limit the way I drive.

Nonetheless, Nissan obviously believes that, at least under certain circumstances, an oil with an HTHS of about 3.0 or 3.1 isn't doing the job. I would have no concern about long engine life with how I drive the vehicle using an ILSAC type 30. However, there are driving habits of which Nissan can conceive that they need to "adjust" things.
 
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

Quote:
What To Use
Although thinner oils with less antiwear additive outperform more robust products in the 96-hour fuel economy test, it is not clear that such products save fuel over the useful life of the engine.

Every fluid is a compromise. Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty. Thicker oils also compromise cold temperature flow, which may be of concern depending upon climate and season.

The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wouldn't go that far, but when you see some of the disparaging and condescending comments of one proponent in particular...can't beat the science, go the player.


+1


-2
 
Interesting thread. If you look at what big box Walmart stocks and sells, well over 45% of their shelf space is dedicated to 5W20, about 30% to 5W30, 15% to 0WXX and 10% to the rest. I would not call it a movement when it started with government intervention. I have trouble finding 10W30 which I believe to be great oil for high temperature conditions for my app. 15W40 HDEO might be better if you're not worried about the CATS.
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Wemay's quote is a good one.
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
My biggest beef was the one size fits all mentality that some of the mfgs. had. Especially when one or two model years prior the identical engine spec'd a thicker oil. Now several years later they are offering more than one viscosity for that engine, case in point my Jeep. Now I can keep one oil in my stash for my entire fleet, 5W30 making life a bit easier.

I grew up during a time where you matched the oil to the climate and conditions, and had no problem doing so.


^ Exactly. I'll never use a thinner back spec'd oil.

And with Toyota saying to use 5w30 when towing in hot weather for better protection, and Ford going to 5w30 in the Super Duty 6.2, well that speaks for itself.
 
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Originally Posted By: WellOiled
And, the change in fuel consumption is well, statistically insignificant according to the mathematicians.
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Not insignificant according to the manufacturers.
 
Originally Posted By: Kuato


And with Toyota saying to use 5w30 when towing in hot weather for better protection, and Ford going to 5w30 in the Super Duty 6.2, well that speaks for itself.



Do you think maybe they learned something in the past few years?
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
And, the change in fuel consumption is well, statistically insignificant according to the mathematicians.
grin.gif



Not insignificant according to the manufacturers.


Sorry, I was being sarcastic. When a poster states they observed a 2 MPG increase someone will pop in a say the poster does not know how to make statistically correct MPG calculations.
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Kuato


And with Toyota saying to use 5w30 when towing in hot weather for better protection, and Ford going to 5w30 in the Super Duty 6.2, well that speaks for itself.



Do you think maybe they learned something in the past few years?
27.gif



Maybe. The real answers are probably hidden in the TSBs.
 
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
 
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
And, the change in fuel consumption is well, statistically insignificant according to the mathematicians.
grin.gif


Put it this way. It is statistically significant and can be measured, beyond statistical noise, within the lab only. Now, you'll never, ever notice the difference yourself, let alone be able to measure that difference outside a lab. However, even if you save $20 a year, that's still a real savings, though again, you'll never notice it. OEMs will, multiplied by all the cars they sell over a year, for sure.

And I'll be the one saying that a poster doesn't know how to make statistically correct MPGs. And, even if they do know how, or, better yet, especially if they do know how, they will know that it's pretty futile to try to deal with such tiny differences outside a lab setting. If Canadian gas pumps really could measure down to the nearest milliliter of fuel, you could be rest assured that every OEM lab would use Canadian gas pumps in all their CAFE and Environment Canada calculations.
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Garak,

The gas pumps down here are sometimes suspect. The auto shut offs don't all work the same and the flow meters may be needing calibration. Only the long term trends are of value.
 
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
The gas pumps down here are sometimes suspect. The auto shut offs don't all work the same and the flow meters may be needing calibration. Only the long term trends are of value.


Plus the energy density of gasoline (even from the same station) varies over time. An article I linked once said their measured variation was 4%, another article said 5.5%.
 
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