Thanks to you folks down under, among others, for pointing out what the oil specifications are on cars common to both countries. If I lived in the southwest in particular, I'd pay close attention to your specs.
What happened to the thin oil movement?
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I am feeling a movement coming on right now and must excuse myself.
The thin believers will swing to the thick side when they start using all the 2.00 0w40 Ultra scored at AZ.....
I'm not a thick guy, I'm not thin either. I take what the manufacturer recommends, both stateside and overseas, and make a decision based on what's in the stash. I do think 0w40 would be a universal oil if there was no CAFE. I run 10w30 in my PowerStroke because it works, and stays in grade. I've got 0w30 currently in my wifes T&C because it's outside all day while she is at work, a 3 mile commute there and back, and it was 2.00 a quart at the last AZ blowout. But,it has seen a lot of GC, 6 changes of Havoline 10w30 syn (Yikes! SH rated even!) and some Schaeffer 5w30/5w50 blend. My sis's Caliber always has, and always will get a 50/50 of 15w40,and 5w20. She's at 157k now, still purring along.
I'm not a thick guy, I'm not thin either. I take what the manufacturer recommends, both stateside and overseas, and make a decision based on what's in the stash. I do think 0w40 would be a universal oil if there was no CAFE. I run 10w30 in my PowerStroke because it works, and stays in grade. I've got 0w30 currently in my wifes T&C because it's outside all day while she is at work, a 3 mile commute there and back, and it was 2.00 a quart at the last AZ blowout. But,it has seen a lot of GC, 6 changes of Havoline 10w30 syn (Yikes! SH rated even!) and some Schaeffer 5w30/5w50 blend. My sis's Caliber always has, and always will get a 50/50 of 15w40,and 5w20. She's at 157k now, still purring along.
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Originally Posted By: racer12306
I am presently experimenting with my Neon.
OEM Spec is 5w30 for 1995 to 2004, then in 2005 they switch to recommending 5w20. As best can be found, there was not an engine change to support this.
My last OCI I used M1 0w40 and my car did not respond well. However, with no recent data of my current usage, I don't know if it was the oil or engine that wasn't happy. I used 3.5 qts over 7000 miles. I originally went with the 0w40 to quiet down the valve train noise the Neons are known for, but what started quieter seemed to come back through the OCI.
Currently using PUP 5w20 and the verdict is still under deliberation as I don't have enough miles to see if there is a difference. Strange note is the engine seems quieter with this oil than the last.
My son had an 02 Neon that drank M1 HM 10W-40 at about 1 qt every 1500 miles - the RMS was leaking and it wasn't worth fixing. The car got totaled as we were about to switch to MaxLife Blend which I think would have helped. It was noisy also due to piston slap - but it ran well and drove great IMO. It made it to 129k before the accident - no one hurt.
I am presently experimenting with my Neon.
OEM Spec is 5w30 for 1995 to 2004, then in 2005 they switch to recommending 5w20. As best can be found, there was not an engine change to support this.
My last OCI I used M1 0w40 and my car did not respond well. However, with no recent data of my current usage, I don't know if it was the oil or engine that wasn't happy. I used 3.5 qts over 7000 miles. I originally went with the 0w40 to quiet down the valve train noise the Neons are known for, but what started quieter seemed to come back through the OCI.
Currently using PUP 5w20 and the verdict is still under deliberation as I don't have enough miles to see if there is a difference. Strange note is the engine seems quieter with this oil than the last.
My son had an 02 Neon that drank M1 HM 10W-40 at about 1 qt every 1500 miles - the RMS was leaking and it wasn't worth fixing. The car got totaled as we were about to switch to MaxLife Blend which I think would have helped. It was noisy also due to piston slap - but it ran well and drove great IMO. It made it to 129k before the accident - no one hurt.
Running Mobil 1 0W40 in one and Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30 plus liqui moly motor oil saver in my two cars both wanting regular 5w30
There has been a small minority of members here who've advocated for oils of grades considerably thinner than those recommended by vehicle manufacturers.
There have been many more members who've done exactly the reverse.
The reality is that there are probably no great benefits either way.
Most engines as most of us use them will live long lives on a variety of grades.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.
If you just bought a nice stash or 0W-40 for a couple of bucks a quart, you might be inclined to look for reasons to use it.
The same would be true if you hit another chain parts store and picked up a cart full of such a deal 0W-20.
There are thin oil theorists, like that guy in Florida and Caterham. There are many more oil grade rationalizers looking for a good justification for using their current oil score.
I'm of the opinion that most engines won't be harmed either way.
No engine will be transformed by the use of any grade of oil.
There have been many more members who've done exactly the reverse.
The reality is that there are probably no great benefits either way.
Most engines as most of us use them will live long lives on a variety of grades.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.
If you just bought a nice stash or 0W-40 for a couple of bucks a quart, you might be inclined to look for reasons to use it.
The same would be true if you hit another chain parts store and picked up a cart full of such a deal 0W-20.
There are thin oil theorists, like that guy in Florida and Caterham. There are many more oil grade rationalizers looking for a good justification for using their current oil score.
I'm of the opinion that most engines won't be harmed either way.
No engine will be transformed by the use of any grade of oil.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Ducman
Hopefully they are thinning out.
Thankfully some sense of reason is coming to the debate with the emergence of some hard facts about the matter that counter the thin oil culture.
It is after all only a culture that simply gained some momentum. A bit like the fascist movements of the 30's.
Really? Lol.
Hopefully they are thinning out.
Thankfully some sense of reason is coming to the debate with the emergence of some hard facts about the matter that counter the thin oil culture.
It is after all only a culture that simply gained some momentum. A bit like the fascist movements of the 30's.
Really? Lol.
Originally Posted By: beanoil
I'm not a thick guy, I'm not thin either. I take what the manufacturer recommends, both stateside and overseas, and make a decision based on what's in the stash. I do think 0w40 would be a universal oil if there was no CAFE. I run 10w30 in my PowerStroke because it works, and stays in grade. I've got 0w30 currently in my wifes T&C because it's outside all day while she is at work, a 3 mile commute there and back, and it was 2.00 a quart at the last AZ blowout. But,it has seen a lot of GC, 6 changes of Havoline 10w30 syn (Yikes! SH rated even!) and some Schaeffer 5w30/5w50 blend. My sis's Caliber always has, and always will get a 50/50 of 15w40,and 5w20. She's at 157k now, still purring along.
Yep, I try to talk anyone out of the 60s and 70s that (some) oil companies in Oz would have you believe are needed for our "harsh climate", while running something that's not listed in the manual for my Nissan diesel (5W30 non ILSAC synthetic) as Nissan's manuals appear to be based on dino 5W30s and historical shortcomings.
Guy at the parts store is about to supercharge his Toyota 86...his manual specs ILSAC 5W30, I've suggested A3/B4 5W30...same price, next to each other on the shelf.
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
I'm not a thick guy, I'm not thin either. I take what the manufacturer recommends, both stateside and overseas, and make a decision based on what's in the stash. I do think 0w40 would be a universal oil if there was no CAFE. I run 10w30 in my PowerStroke because it works, and stays in grade. I've got 0w30 currently in my wifes T&C because it's outside all day while she is at work, a 3 mile commute there and back, and it was 2.00 a quart at the last AZ blowout. But,it has seen a lot of GC, 6 changes of Havoline 10w30 syn (Yikes! SH rated even!) and some Schaeffer 5w30/5w50 blend. My sis's Caliber always has, and always will get a 50/50 of 15w40,and 5w20. She's at 157k now, still purring along.
Yep, I try to talk anyone out of the 60s and 70s that (some) oil companies in Oz would have you believe are needed for our "harsh climate", while running something that's not listed in the manual for my Nissan diesel (5W30 non ILSAC synthetic) as Nissan's manuals appear to be based on dino 5W30s and historical shortcomings.
Guy at the parts store is about to supercharge his Toyota 86...his manual specs ILSAC 5W30, I've suggested A3/B4 5W30...same price, next to each other on the shelf.
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wouldn't go that far, but when you see some of the disparaging and condescending comments of one proponent in particular...can't beat the science, go the player.
+1
Wouldn't go that far, but when you see some of the disparaging and condescending comments of one proponent in particular...can't beat the science, go the player.
+1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yep, I try to talk anyone out of the 60s and 70s that (some) oil companies in Oz would have you believe are needed for our "harsh climate", while running something that's not listed in the manual for my Nissan diesel (5W30 non ILSAC synthetic) as Nissan's manuals appear to be based on dino 5W30s and historical shortcomings.
Guy at the parts store is about to supercharge his Toyota 86...his manual specs ILSAC 5W30, I've suggested A3/B4 5W30...same price, next to each other on the shelf.
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
Oooohhh, send it to me for correct disposal in any number of friends blown motors
Yep, I try to talk anyone out of the 60s and 70s that (some) oil companies in Oz would have you believe are needed for our "harsh climate", while running something that's not listed in the manual for my Nissan diesel (5W30 non ILSAC synthetic) as Nissan's manuals appear to be based on dino 5W30s and historical shortcomings.
Guy at the parts store is about to supercharge his Toyota 86...his manual specs ILSAC 5W30, I've suggested A3/B4 5W30...same price, next to each other on the shelf.
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
Oooohhh, send it to me for correct disposal in any number of friends blown motors
While I don't have really care I'll add some venom. I have a '16 Super a duty with a 6.2. With no physical changes in the power plant FoMoCo has changed their recommendation from 5w20 to a 5w30.
My guess...this is not to acomedate playing the piano...
My guess...this is not to acomedate playing the piano...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
Are they trying to compete with the M1 Racing 0W-50 with that brew, or is that M1 not available in the antipodes?
Penrite does have some interesting products.
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
Are they trying to compete with the M1 Racing 0W-50 with that brew, or is that M1 not available in the antipodes?
Penrite does have some interesting products.
When is the last time anyone saw an oil failure because the oil was too thin and didn't protect the engine under extreme conditions? Probably never, because most people barely use 20% of their engine's capacity on a regular basis. Much more likely is to see sludge and varnish.
My son's roommate just seized her engine because she didn't change or check the oil for 4 years and it ran out. That is real world.
My son's roommate just seized her engine because she didn't change or check the oil for 4 years and it ran out. That is real world.
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Originally Posted By: Doublehaul
While I don't have really care I'll add some venom. I have a '16 Super a duty with a 6.2. With no physical changes in the power plant FoMoCo has changed their recommendation from 5w20 to a 5w30.
And we are seeing other switches elsewhere. I think North American manufacturers are finding out what European manufacturers did years ago. You just don't extend the OCIs as much as you can and have as your specification the thinnest ILSAC oil on the shelf. That may work in a lot of applications, but it may not work so well across the board, particularly if you got an application that's shearing the oil one way or another.
While I don't have really care I'll add some venom. I have a '16 Super a duty with a 6.2. With no physical changes in the power plant FoMoCo has changed their recommendation from 5w20 to a 5w30.
And we are seeing other switches elsewhere. I think North American manufacturers are finding out what European manufacturers did years ago. You just don't extend the OCIs as much as you can and have as your specification the thinnest ILSAC oil on the shelf. That may work in a lot of applications, but it may not work so well across the board, particularly if you got an application that's shearing the oil one way or another.
Originally Posted By: NO2
When is the last time anyone saw an oil failure because the oil was too thin and didn't protect the engine under extreme conditions? Probably never, because most people barely use 20% of their engine's capacity on a regular basis. Much more likely is to see sludge and varnish.
My son's roommate just seized her engine because she didn't change or check the oil for 4 years and it ran out. That is real world.
Actually I do think that some engines are being destroyed by thin oils but not because the oils are thin.
If the argument was only about thin vs thick viscometric behaviour, it would be hard to argue against thin. However, if you move from a 10W30 to a 5W30, all things being equal, thin is more volatile than thick (you have to lighten up the base oil mix to make the low temperature viscosity). If that extra volatility translates into more oil vapour being carried out of the crankcase, through the PCV, into the intake and burnt in the combustion chamber, then I think there is a significant risk that over time, the gummy deposits you get from burning oil can cause oil control rings to stick. Once you have a stuck oil ring, you start losing excessive amounts of oil from underneath the piston into the chamber. Once that happens, unless you want to do a complete rebuild (something that's not usually cost-effective on an older car), the engine is as good as knackered (as will be your cat if you live too long with high oil loss).
Yes, I know full well that a full synthetic 5W30 can have a lower volatility than a full mineral 10W30 and that thin doesn't automatically increase risk BUT if you have the right combination of circumstances (5W30, poor Group II, sloppy blending, low CCS to get FE, low tension rings, living in a cold winter climate, high blow-by, etc) then I reckon you can be heading for trouble!
When is the last time anyone saw an oil failure because the oil was too thin and didn't protect the engine under extreme conditions? Probably never, because most people barely use 20% of their engine's capacity on a regular basis. Much more likely is to see sludge and varnish.
My son's roommate just seized her engine because she didn't change or check the oil for 4 years and it ran out. That is real world.
Actually I do think that some engines are being destroyed by thin oils but not because the oils are thin.
If the argument was only about thin vs thick viscometric behaviour, it would be hard to argue against thin. However, if you move from a 10W30 to a 5W30, all things being equal, thin is more volatile than thick (you have to lighten up the base oil mix to make the low temperature viscosity). If that extra volatility translates into more oil vapour being carried out of the crankcase, through the PCV, into the intake and burnt in the combustion chamber, then I think there is a significant risk that over time, the gummy deposits you get from burning oil can cause oil control rings to stick. Once you have a stuck oil ring, you start losing excessive amounts of oil from underneath the piston into the chamber. Once that happens, unless you want to do a complete rebuild (something that's not usually cost-effective on an older car), the engine is as good as knackered (as will be your cat if you live too long with high oil loss).
Yes, I know full well that a full synthetic 5W30 can have a lower volatility than a full mineral 10W30 and that thin doesn't automatically increase risk BUT if you have the right combination of circumstances (5W30, poor Group II, sloppy blending, low CCS to get FE, low tension rings, living in a cold winter climate, high blow-by, etc) then I reckon you can be heading for trouble!
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
Are they trying to compete with the M1 Racing 0W-50 with that brew, or is that M1 not available in the antipodes?
Penrite does have some interesting products.
More likely competing with things like M1 0W-40.
Penrite had a +10 policy, making every oil weight heavier by ten.
They have calmed this down recently, the 0W-50 is the older stuff. The recent product is a more sensible 0W-40, but they do have a 5W-50 if you want heavier.
They did a 5W-20 as a +10, so it came out as a 5W-30, which is a little confusing at first.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Came across a screaming deal for Penrite 0W50 PAO/Ester yesterday, but didn't play, as I honestly don't know how or where I'd use it.
Are they trying to compete with the M1 Racing 0W-50 with that brew, or is that M1 not available in the antipodes?
Penrite does have some interesting products.
More likely competing with things like M1 0W-40.
Penrite had a +10 policy, making every oil weight heavier by ten.
They have calmed this down recently, the 0W-50 is the older stuff. The recent product is a more sensible 0W-40, but they do have a 5W-50 if you want heavier.
They did a 5W-20 as a +10, so it came out as a 5W-30, which is a little confusing at first.
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Ducman
Hopefully they are thinning out.
Thankfully some sense of reason is coming to the debate with the emergence of some hard facts about the matter that counter the thin oil culture.
It is after all only a culture that simply gained some momentum. A bit like the fascist movements of the 30's.
Really? Lol.
Thinnies are like fascists.
Originally Posted By: Ducman
Hopefully they are thinning out.
Thankfully some sense of reason is coming to the debate with the emergence of some hard facts about the matter that counter the thin oil culture.
It is after all only a culture that simply gained some momentum. A bit like the fascist movements of the 30's.
Really? Lol.
Thinnies are like fascists.
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