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What happened to the thin oil movement?
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
The gas pumps down here are sometimes suspect. The auto shut offs don't all work the same and the flow meters may be needing calibration. Only the long term trends are of value.
Plus the energy density of gasoline (even from the same station) varies over time. An article I linked once said their measured variation was 4%, another article said 5.5%.
That is significant variability. I knew someone who worked in a refinery lab and they would blend down to about 87 +/- 0.2. Other refiners may not do it and sell it at 87.3.
He never mentioned the energy density.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
The gas pumps down here are sometimes suspect. The auto shut offs don't all work the same and the flow meters may be needing calibration. Only the long term trends are of value.
Plus the energy density of gasoline (even from the same station) varies over time. An article I linked once said their measured variation was 4%, another article said 5.5%.
That is significant variability. I knew someone who worked in a refinery lab and they would blend down to about 87 +/- 0.2. Other refiners may not do it and sell it at 87.3.
He never mentioned the energy density.
quote) Was there ever a thin oil movement? [/quote]
When I first came to this site, I think there was. How it started, I'd like to know.
I define Thin Oil as oil outside the manufacturers recomendations. Or, at least, at the extreams of those recommendations for the owners regional ambient temperatures.
I have to admit, when I first came here I was surprised that people were advocating going against manufacturers rec's. For a while I even suspected they might know better/ be wiser?
When I first came to this site, I think there was. How it started, I'd like to know.
I define Thin Oil as oil outside the manufacturers recomendations. Or, at least, at the extreams of those recommendations for the owners regional ambient temperatures.
I have to admit, when I first came here I was surprised that people were advocating going against manufacturers rec's. For a while I even suspected they might know better/ be wiser?
Originally Posted By: bigt61
Originally Posted By: racer12306
I am presently experimenting with my Neon.
OEM Spec is 5w30 for 1995 to 2004, then in 2005 they switch to recommending 5w20. As best can be found, there was not an engine change to support this.
My last OCI I used M1 0w40 and my car did not respond well. However, with no recent data of my current usage, I don't know if it was the oil or engine that wasn't happy. I used 3.5 qts over 7000 miles. I originally went with the 0w40 to quiet down the valve train noise the Neons are known for, but what started quieter seemed to come back through the OCI.
Currently using PUP 5w20 and the verdict is still under deliberation as I don't have enough miles to see if there is a difference. Strange note is the engine seems quieter with this oil than the last.
My son had an 02 Neon that drank M1 HM 10W-40 at about 1 qt every 1500 miles - the RMS was leaking and it wasn't worth fixing. The car got totaled as we were about to switch to MaxLife Blend which I think would have helped. It was noisy also due to piston slap - but it ran well and drove great IMO. It made it to 129k before the accident - no one hurt.
It's been a good car, currently with 111000 miles on it. Hoping to hit 200k+ before dumping it. I just noticed that the oil pan gasket is starting to seep a little, might replace it if it isn't too bad of a job. I figure if consumption ever gets too bad, I'll just keep it full of Supertech conventional and change the filter every 7500-10000 miles. Driving 550 miles/week could get pricey with the expensive stuff going through it too much.
Originally Posted By: racer12306
I am presently experimenting with my Neon.
OEM Spec is 5w30 for 1995 to 2004, then in 2005 they switch to recommending 5w20. As best can be found, there was not an engine change to support this.
My last OCI I used M1 0w40 and my car did not respond well. However, with no recent data of my current usage, I don't know if it was the oil or engine that wasn't happy. I used 3.5 qts over 7000 miles. I originally went with the 0w40 to quiet down the valve train noise the Neons are known for, but what started quieter seemed to come back through the OCI.
Currently using PUP 5w20 and the verdict is still under deliberation as I don't have enough miles to see if there is a difference. Strange note is the engine seems quieter with this oil than the last.
My son had an 02 Neon that drank M1 HM 10W-40 at about 1 qt every 1500 miles - the RMS was leaking and it wasn't worth fixing. The car got totaled as we were about to switch to MaxLife Blend which I think would have helped. It was noisy also due to piston slap - but it ran well and drove great IMO. It made it to 129k before the accident - no one hurt.
It's been a good car, currently with 111000 miles on it. Hoping to hit 200k+ before dumping it. I just noticed that the oil pan gasket is starting to seep a little, might replace it if it isn't too bad of a job. I figure if consumption ever gets too bad, I'll just keep it full of Supertech conventional and change the filter every 7500-10000 miles. Driving 550 miles/week could get pricey with the expensive stuff going through it too much.
Turbos famously add oil heat through the bearing housing. The oil is cooling the turbo bearings by taking heat away.
I really do not think many turbo'd cars or trucks can live long and happy lives with XW-20 and towing or staying in the boosted range for long periods of time ...
Not many big rigs are running XW-20 ... And they stay boosted for hours climbing grades ...
Now if there was an XW-20 with a really big detergency, I'd consider it as a cleaning agent for a short OCI
I really do not think many turbo'd cars or trucks can live long and happy lives with XW-20 and towing or staying in the boosted range for long periods of time ...
Not many big rigs are running XW-20 ... And they stay boosted for hours climbing grades ...
Now if there was an XW-20 with a really big detergency, I'd consider it as a cleaning agent for a short OCI
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
That is significant variability. I knew someone who worked in a refinery lab and they would blend down to about 87 +/- 0.2. Other refiners may not do it and sell it at 87.3.
He never mentioned the energy density.
Well energy density and octane rating of gasoline aren't directly related of course. They can be if it isn't straight gasoline.
That is significant variability. I knew someone who worked in a refinery lab and they would blend down to about 87 +/- 0.2. Other refiners may not do it and sell it at 87.3.
He never mentioned the energy density.
Well energy density and octane rating of gasoline aren't directly related of course. They can be if it isn't straight gasoline.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
Thinner oils not for protection then? Interesting. Take a look at a 10w30, especially the add pack, in a factory remanned 12.7L engine with 500,000 miles since the reman. Normally one would use a 15w40 in something like this application which spends most of it's time moving up to 80,000 lb of truck and freight.
Miles on Motor 493387 Miles on oil 20100
Iron 28
Chromium 2
Lead 6
Copper 1
Tin 0
Aluminum 1
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Titanium 1
Vanadium 1
Silicon 3
Boron 1
Sodium 22
Potassium 2
Magnesium 985
Calcium 1494
Phosphorus 1276
Zinc 1573
Moly 68
Barium 0
Vis @ 100c 11.53
TBN 8.14
Oxidation 16
Nitration 8
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
Thinner oils not for protection then? Interesting. Take a look at a 10w30, especially the add pack, in a factory remanned 12.7L engine with 500,000 miles since the reman. Normally one would use a 15w40 in something like this application which spends most of it's time moving up to 80,000 lb of truck and freight.
Miles on Motor 493387 Miles on oil 20100
Iron 28
Chromium 2
Lead 6
Copper 1
Tin 0
Aluminum 1
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Titanium 1
Vanadium 1
Silicon 3
Boron 1
Sodium 22
Potassium 2
Magnesium 985
Calcium 1494
Phosphorus 1276
Zinc 1573
Moly 68
Barium 0
Vis @ 100c 11.53
TBN 8.14
Oxidation 16
Nitration 8
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
That is significant variability. I knew someone who worked in a refinery lab and they would blend down to about 87 +/- 0.2. Other refiners may not do it and sell it at 87.3.
He never mentioned the energy density.
Well energy density and octane rating of gasoline aren't directly related of course. They can be if it isn't straight gasoline.
I was thinking it is the alcohol they blend in for emissions that changes the energy density. These reformulated fuels are the pits. And, I'm off topic.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
That is significant variability. I knew someone who worked in a refinery lab and they would blend down to about 87 +/- 0.2. Other refiners may not do it and sell it at 87.3.
He never mentioned the energy density.
Well energy density and octane rating of gasoline aren't directly related of course. They can be if it isn't straight gasoline.
I was thinking it is the alcohol they blend in for emissions that changes the energy density. These reformulated fuels are the pits. And, I'm off topic.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
Not quite that simple. I occasionally crew on a A/F digger (blown Nitro) and we run 50wt Redline Race Oil exclusively. BUT, it is pre-heated to 180* in a transfer can before it ever goes into the oil tank. It's a dry-sump system. The tank is insulated so the oil stays very close to the pour-in temp.
AND, it gets changed after every run. The used oil gets sieved, spun in aluminum pot with a series of magnets, and I look at under a high magnification scope to see the colloidal residue. The magnets get wiped down and that gets looked at.
There is not a street car in the world that gets this kind of attention to lubrication.
These motors run aluminum rods with steel caps. Aluminum rods gall or shed material as the aluminum rubs on the mating surface (two rods per throw). The 50wt is what keeps the aluminum from galling.
It has nothing to do with bearings, or cams, or any other part except maybe the 7amp ignition drive gears that can also gall.
Of course we "clearance" the bearings throughout the motor for this oil. That's maybe 0.001 added to clearances throughout (it varies somewhat ...). The motors never see actual wear. They are in spec every time. No mileage related clearance changes, etc.
Anyone running lesser weight oils will soon be buying a LOT of expensive rods. Not for the breakage, but for the destroyed mating faces...
Please do not quote "racers" as justification for heavy oils w/o the full rational and build techniques that support the oil use.
Now, does that mean that 20W-50 is bad on the street - no. But you are firing a cold motor on 20W which is an important consideration. These are Apples & Oranges. Gotta work through the details and minutia to know what is working and why ...
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
Not quite that simple. I occasionally crew on a A/F digger (blown Nitro) and we run 50wt Redline Race Oil exclusively. BUT, it is pre-heated to 180* in a transfer can before it ever goes into the oil tank. It's a dry-sump system. The tank is insulated so the oil stays very close to the pour-in temp.
AND, it gets changed after every run. The used oil gets sieved, spun in aluminum pot with a series of magnets, and I look at under a high magnification scope to see the colloidal residue. The magnets get wiped down and that gets looked at.
There is not a street car in the world that gets this kind of attention to lubrication.
These motors run aluminum rods with steel caps. Aluminum rods gall or shed material as the aluminum rubs on the mating surface (two rods per throw). The 50wt is what keeps the aluminum from galling.
It has nothing to do with bearings, or cams, or any other part except maybe the 7amp ignition drive gears that can also gall.
Of course we "clearance" the bearings throughout the motor for this oil. That's maybe 0.001 added to clearances throughout (it varies somewhat ...). The motors never see actual wear. They are in spec every time. No mileage related clearance changes, etc.
Anyone running lesser weight oils will soon be buying a LOT of expensive rods. Not for the breakage, but for the destroyed mating faces...
Please do not quote "racers" as justification for heavy oils w/o the full rational and build techniques that support the oil use.
Now, does that mean that 20W-50 is bad on the street - no. But you are firing a cold motor on 20W which is an important consideration. These are Apples & Oranges. Gotta work through the details and minutia to know what is working and why ...
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
Thinner oils not for protection then? Interesting. Take a look at a 10w30, especially the add pack, in a factory remanned 12.7L engine with 500,000 miles since the reman. Normally one would use a 15w40 in something like this application which spends most of it's time moving up to 80,000 lb of truck and freight.
Miles on Motor 493387 Miles on oil 20100
Iron 28
Chromium 2
Lead 6
Copper 1
Tin 0
Aluminum 1
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Titanium 1
Vanadium 1
Silicon 3
Boron 1
Sodium 22
Potassium 2
Magnesium 985
Calcium 1494
Phosphorus 1276
Zinc 1573
Moly 68
Barium 0
Vis @ 100c 11.53
TBN 8.14
Oxidation 16
Nitration 8
Nice report! I think by thinner oils they're referring to 20 grade oil.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
When I see mfg's spec 50wt oils for racing and sustained high rpm conditions,that's proof in black and white that thick oils are for protection and thin oils are for economy.
Thinner oils not for protection then? Interesting. Take a look at a 10w30, especially the add pack, in a factory remanned 12.7L engine with 500,000 miles since the reman. Normally one would use a 15w40 in something like this application which spends most of it's time moving up to 80,000 lb of truck and freight.
Miles on Motor 493387 Miles on oil 20100
Iron 28
Chromium 2
Lead 6
Copper 1
Tin 0
Aluminum 1
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Titanium 1
Vanadium 1
Silicon 3
Boron 1
Sodium 22
Potassium 2
Magnesium 985
Calcium 1494
Phosphorus 1276
Zinc 1573
Moly 68
Barium 0
Vis @ 100c 11.53
TBN 8.14
Oxidation 16
Nitration 8
Nice report! I think by thinner oils they're referring to 20 grade oil.
The relation is the same. In this case from a 40w to a 30w. Not sure it is any different of a leap from a 30w to a 20w. Keep in mind, my example also was from a engine that is 16 years old and is a factory reman to boot. So one of the newer smaller engines on it's first go around, not sure that using a 20w is all that bad of a deal. I have not seen any serious examples of problems with any of them that can be attributed directly to a lower vis oil. Not championing the use of something like a 20w, just haven't seen any kind of trend that shows it is something to avoid.
but the 10w30 in your rig has an HTHSof over 3.5, right? just like the 40w.
the xw20 are around 2.6, if not under... okay if the oil stays cool enough only.
the xw20 are around 2.6, if not under... okay if the oil stays cool enough only.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
but the 10w30 in your rig has an HTHSof over 3.5, right? just like the 40w.
the xw20 are around 2.6, if not under... okay if the oil stays cool enough only.
Yes, there are proponents of thin oils that frequent the board who would call that "really a 40" at 3.5(2), but that's about where a straight 30 would be situated, which was the grade that most used before 15W40 multigrades were accepted.
When in hydrodynamics, "a miss is as good as a mile"...sufficient viscosity to keep the parts apart keeps them apart, but you never know how close they are getting, and how much additional protection you have from a fuel dilution or overheat event.
but the 10w30 in your rig has an HTHSof over 3.5, right? just like the 40w.
the xw20 are around 2.6, if not under... okay if the oil stays cool enough only.
Yes, there are proponents of thin oils that frequent the board who would call that "really a 40" at 3.5(2), but that's about where a straight 30 would be situated, which was the grade that most used before 15W40 multigrades were accepted.
When in hydrodynamics, "a miss is as good as a mile"...sufficient viscosity to keep the parts apart keeps them apart, but you never know how close they are getting, and how much additional protection you have from a fuel dilution or overheat event.
What happened to Dr. Haas?
I miss his reports on using 0w-20 in his Italian modes of transportation.
I miss his reports on using 0w-20 in his Italian modes of transportation.
Sooner or later we will just have to accept there is more than one way to skin a cat. Tig1 has been running 20wt long before manufactures recommended it and he has had acceptable results based on his posts over the years. I tend more toward 30 and 40 weight oils...but I'm not convinced it matters for the avg driver.
I had 2 2014 Subarus with the new FB25 2.5 factory speced to 0w20. Ran 1 on 0w20 and the other on 0w40...no noticeable difference and both had great UOAs. My last truck, a 15 silverado with the new 5.3 specing 0w20 ran fine on 0w30 towing etc...
I spoke to a Ford power train engineer several years ago in depth about oil and he stated that he felt the thinnest oil that offered adequate protection should be the spec oil. Adequate is a funny thing though...adequate to whom and for what...but i digress
I had 2 2014 Subarus with the new FB25 2.5 factory speced to 0w20. Ran 1 on 0w20 and the other on 0w40...no noticeable difference and both had great UOAs. My last truck, a 15 silverado with the new 5.3 specing 0w20 ran fine on 0w30 towing etc...
I spoke to a Ford power train engineer several years ago in depth about oil and he stated that he felt the thinnest oil that offered adequate protection should be the spec oil. Adequate is a funny thing though...adequate to whom and for what...but i digress
Originally Posted By: Shannow
He drops in occasionally, makes a (oft incorrect) statement, usually referring the reader to University 101, then refuses to answer questions regarding on evidence for his statement.
Not to be anything but objective, but perhaps his Ferrari's engine running a 10 weight oil did not last as long as it should have?
He drops in occasionally, makes a (oft incorrect) statement, usually referring the reader to University 101, then refuses to answer questions regarding on evidence for his statement.
Not to be anything but objective, but perhaps his Ferrari's engine running a 10 weight oil did not last as long as it should have?
Don't those babies spec a 50? Oddly...ive talked to 2 Ferrari mechanics over the years and they all (both of them anyway) recommend and use conventional oil citing leaks with Syn.
I personally don't believe syn is any more likely to leak...but its funny that this is a "thing" in Ferrari circles.
I personally don't believe syn is any more likely to leak...but its funny that this is a "thing" in Ferrari circles.
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