VW VR6 3.6 502.00 v. 504.00

[Cary]

All,

Actually a 20+ year member under Cary, but for some reason my password didn't work, and the reset goes to an email an ISP that is defunct. So here is my delima, which is splitting hairs. Picked up a 2016 VW Touareg with the 3.6 VR6 for my son with 107,000 miles. Clean car, but the big attraction was for reasons unknown, the original motor was replaced with a factory long block by the dealer at 96,000 miles, so the car has a new engine.

So here is my big question, Mobil 1 0w-40 (502.00/Porsche A40) or Mobil 1 5w-30 (504.00/Porsche C30). The vehicle is in California, so generally nice weather, with occasional temps as high as 110f, and in winter in the Sierra's, as low as 0f when skiing. By way of reference, I have experience with this engine, having a 2008 Porsche Cayenne (6 speed manual) with the same engine, 10k mile OCI with M1 0w-40 and the vehicle now has 190k miles with no consumption between changes.

So here is why I possibly question my choice. Porsche has always specified a 504.00/C30 oil for this engine in their application. VW specified a 502.00/A40 until about 2017 when they switched to recommending either 502.00 or 504.00. I ignored the Porsche recommendation in favor of the VW one with no apparent ill effects.

So I am wondering, for this new VR6, should I stayed with tried and true, or jump to the 5w-30 ESP. 0w-40 allows me to only use one oil, as my other vehicles run (or can run) it (1996 Toyota Landcruiser, 2016 Cayenne S, 2016 BMW X3 3.5i). So, what does the peanut gallery say?

 

[kschachn]

With those approvals they have a minimum HT/HS which makes the grade pretty irrelevant. And unless you’re starting below -30 or so the 5W winter rating will be fine.

Beyond that it’s not going to make too much difference.

 

[Popsy]

Is it a direct injection engine?

 

[edyvw]

Is it a direct injection engine?

Yes. One of the first DI engines. Big fuel dilutor.

 

[edyvw]

Stay with heavier oils or if you want lower SAPS oil, go Motul X-Clean 5W40 GEN2 which has VW511.00 approval, basically W40 BW504.00/507.00.

 

[Cary]

Stay with heavier oils or if you want lower SAPS oil, go Motul X-Clean 5W40 GEN2 which has VW511.00 approval, basically W40 BW504.00/507.00.

Why a 511.00 oil, which is not recommended by VW? According to the Lubrizol relative performance comparison tool, 504.00 (2021) exceeds the performance of both 502.00 (2022) and 511.00 (2018) oils. I believe 511.00 oil is the same spec as Porsche C40, which Porsche is very specific (for some reason) cannot be used in place of A40 or C30 oils.

 

[edyvw]

Why a 511.00 oil, which is not recommended by VW? According to the Lubrizol relative performance comparison tool, 504.00 (2021) exceeds the performance of both 502.00 (2022) and 511.00 (2018) oils. I believe 511.00 oil is the same spec as Porsche C40, which Porsche is very specific (for some reason) cannot be used in place of A40 or C30 oils.

Lubrizol should not be used to compare to other approvals, as Lubrizol says it!
Yes it is C40, but it is also LL04, MB 229.51 etc. Only reason why you should move to VW504.00 is if you want Low-SAPS oil. IMO, you should stick to heavier oils as VR6 is big fuel dilution machine. If you feel uncomfortable with VW511.00, I would rather stick to VW502.00 than go VW504.00.

 

[Cary]

Lubrizol should not be used to compare to other approvals, as Lubrizol says it!
Yes it is C40, but it is also LL04, MB 229.51 etc. Only reason why you should move to VW504.00 is if you want Low-SAPS oil. IMO, you should stick to heavier oils as VR6 is big fuel dilution machine. If you feel uncomfortable with VW511.00, I would rather stick to VW502.00 than go VW504.00.

My understanding is within manufacture specs it can be a useful comparison tool. From the tool: "NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification . . . ." My understanding was that the big concern with lowered SAPS oils was increased wear and additive package depletion when exposed to high sulfur fuel (no longer a concern in the US). The benefit was less cat pollution and less potential intake deposits for DI engines.

It is frustrating that when a product appears to be better (i.e. C40/511 v. A40/502) the then the manufacture says not backward compatible with no explanation. I know I am splitting hairs, and frankly, given the good track record I have had with the 0w-40 in this engine, and it meets all the requirements for my other cars, and is the cheapest, it should be a no-brainer. Appreciate your continued thoughts.

 

[kschachn]

My understanding is within manufacture specs it can be a useful comparison tool. From the tool: "NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification . . . ." My understanding was that the big concern with lowered SAPS oils was increased wear and additive package depletion when exposed to high sulfur fuel (no longer a concern in the US). The benefit was less cat pollution and less potential intake deposits for DI engines.

It is frustrating that when a product appears to be better (i.e. C40/511 v. A40/502) the then the manufacture says not backward compatible with no explanation. I know I am splitting hairs, and frankly, given the good track record I have had with the 0w-40 in this engine, and it meets all the requirements for my other cars, and is the cheapest, it should be a no-brainer. Appreciate your continued thoughts.

Yes but you also have to remember that the chart represents areas of emphasis, not absolute numbers.

 

[KCJeep]

I had an 18 VR6 since new and did several UOAs on it. Despite my long highway commuting as 90% of the miles a VW 504 was done at 10k. TBN of 1. something. On the other hand full saps VW 502 Castrol 5w40 still had a TBN of about 4. “Wear numbers” were no different. Same use pattern.

I’d use either without hesitation but I would not go long intervals with a 504 in the VR6.

 

[edyvw]

My understanding is within manufacture specs it can be a useful comparison tool. From the tool: "NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification . . . ." My understanding was that the big concern with lowered SAPS oils was increased wear and additive package depletion when exposed to high sulfur fuel (no longer a concern in the US). The benefit was less cat pollution and less potential intake deposits for DI engines.

It is frustrating that when a product appears to be better (i.e. C40/511 v. A40/502) the then the manufacture says not backward compatible with no explanation. I know I am splitting hairs, and frankly, given the good track record I have had with the 0w-40 in this engine, and it meets all the requirements for my other cars, and is the cheapest, it should be a no-brainer. Appreciate your continued thoughts.

VW 504.00 is Low-SAPS oil.

 

[SureshR]

VW 502/505 was the old spec for gas/diesel and roughly acea a3b4. VW 504/507 is the updated gas / diesel VW spec for Euro 6 engines that come with dpf, scr etc

 

[edyvw]

VW 502/505 was the old spec for gas/diesel and roughly acea a3b4. VW 504/507 is the updated gas / diesel VW spec for Euro 6 engines that come with dpf, scr etc

Approvals change and get updated! VW504.00/507.00 was first introduced in 2004. I worked on oil testing for that approval in 2003 and 2004. Since then it had several updates as well as VW502.00. Approvals are not static in time. Issuing always new approvals would create confusion among customers.

 

[SureshR]

Approvals change and get updated! VW504.00/507.00 was first introduced in 2004. I worked on oil testing for that approval in 2003 and 2004. Since then it had several updates as well as VW502.00. Approvals are not static in time. Issuing always new approvals would create confusion among customers.

There should at least be a year tagged on to the approval in that case? Like acea a5/b5-16

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

There should at least be a year tagged on to the approval in that case? Like acea a5/b5-16

Revisions are always backward compatible so there's no reason to indicate a revision date although I have seen it. Now you can visit this site to compare one revision to another.

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

 

[edyvw]

There should at least be a year tagged on to the approval in that case? Like acea a5/b5-16

What does that mean to consumer? To carry approval oil has to have current approval. It cannot carry old approval.

 

[edyvw]

Revisions are always backward compatible so there's no reason to indicate a revision date although I have seen it. Now you can visit this site to compare one revision to another.

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

This! So approval stays true to itself. Each approval has certain engines that is created for. It just becomes more stringent over time or address certain engine issues (for example adding LSPI test).

 

[SureshR]

What does that mean to consumer? To carry approval oil has to have current approval. It cannot carry old approval.

I was thinking oils in the market (and especially a non European market) from different generations of the same approval.

There’s this one with api sm and a5b5 2008 besides vw 502 - https://www.amazon.in/Wuerth-5W40-Api-Synthetic-Engine/dp/B0842DTS9Q/

And then this much more modern formulation that has API SP and A3B4 besides VW 502 https://www.amazon.in/Mobil-0W-40-Advanced-Synthetic-Motor/dp/B00SFNO0UK/

 

[RooflessVW]

Always liked a 50 in the VR6.

But I ran M1 0W-40 in mine under warranty.

 

[pbm]

My in-law has a 2013 Touareg with the 3.6 and I've used 0w30 Castrol GC, 5w40 Castrol, 5w40 QS Euro and the latest change I went with the 5w40 Total from the AA 'Clearance'.
All seem to work well. I would have stuck with the QS based on price but the 'Total' on 'Clearance' was hard to beat. The OCI seems to average about 8K based on when she comes to visit. The 7 quart sump (and strong Euro oils) gives me confidence that it can handle that OCI.