Volkswagen Beetle. A classic car on a budget?

[IndyIan]

One overlooked issue would be crash protection.
I almost bought an old VW Bus, but I found out that there was no protection for the driver and passenger leg/foot area and any frontal impact would crush your legs. I know that is the VW bus (not the bettle), but their lack of crash protection might be similar. Other concerns would be the anemic horse power (I think 60 bph), and at 60 MPH it might be straining to maintain speed.

The old Toyota Camry you mentioned could probably take you another 200k miles, and would be my choice.

I don't know what engine was in the beetle ragtop(roof closed) I was in, in Germany but it got to 130km/h reasonably fast and seemed happy doing it. It was owned by a pretty wealthy family so it was in like new condition, but I was impressed.
They also had a 1988 Cadillac Seville which was glass smooth at 180km/h...

 

[repairman54]

I had a '64 bug. 40 hp. My first and last VW. Corvair was a safer car with heat in comparison, and they could get out of their own way.

 

[bunnspecial]

if you are cool with a 2 seater, MGB or Midget are fun cars for knocking around in. Prices aren’t crazy either.

I was tempted to make a similar comment in this thread, although admittedly I am biased since I've had my MGB for quite a long time. It was where I wanted my classic car journey to start, and for the time being at least I'm content for it to stay there.

They lack the German precision of any VW products. All said and done they're actually pretty crude vehicles with leaf spring live axle rear suspension(in a sports car made until 1980) and tops that are not exactly easy to raise.

With that said, they're dead simple. Water cooling does add an additional dimension that you don't need to worry about on VWs, but also allows you to have reasonable heat when temperatures get colder. Of course too you get a more conventional front engine layout.

For a classic, though, this to me is a big selling point-they are actually usable in modern traffic. They're not the fastest vehicles around by any measure, but will run 80 all day if you want them to(and yes that's true even without overdrive, although overdrive lets you run at 3200rpms at 70 rather than 4000 and 3500 at 80 rather than 4500). Not that I recommend it, or will even admit to actually having done it, but a factory high compression engine(8.8:1, as fitted in the US 62-71) won't break too much of a sweat doing 100.

For a small car, and especially a 60+ year old design of a small car, they are quite safe. The brakes are excellent with disks up front and drums in the rear. They do have engineered crumple zones, and back in the day the factory was fond of showing off crash tested cars. 70 and newer should have 3 point belts from the factory.

Like any other vehicle, classic or modern, rust is the most expensive thing you can buy. As they are unibodies, almost all panel rust will compromise the structure in some way, but they are also quite stiff and rigid compared to a lot of their contemporaries. Other than that, most parts are available easily. The engine sometimes is called a bit crude or agricultural, but it is amazingly reliable(and plenty of shops that work on them can tell you stories of "how was this thing running" cars that were driven to them) and of course simple. They can be built up a bit hotter without too much trouble. Learn how the SU carbs work and learn to work on them and you'll be rewarded with a great running car that makes great power across the whole RPM band.

 

[ecotourist]

I don't know what engine was in the beetle ragtop(roof closed) I was in, in Germany but it got to 130km/h reasonably fast and seemed happy doing it. It was owned by a pretty wealthy family so it was in like new condition, but I was impressed.

Do you suppose it had a Porsche 356 engine in it? I understand some people did that swap.

There is a probably apocryphal story of the police catching someone driving a beetle and going through a radar trap at 80 or 90 miles an hour. When the officer stopped the car he demanded to see the engine, and then having been shown the Porsche 356 engine said "Yeah, that's a Volkswagen engine all right, must be something wrong with my radar set."

 

[Kurtatron]

I was tempted to make a similar comment in this thread, although admittedly I am biased since I've had my MGB for quite a long time. It was where I wanted my classic car journey to start, and for the time being at least I'm content for it to stay there.

They lack the German precision of any VW products. All said and done they're actually pretty crude vehicles with leaf spring live axle rear suspension(in a sports car made until 1980) and tops that are not exactly easy to raise.

With that said, they're dead simple. Water cooling does add an additional dimension that you don't need to worry about on VWs, but also allows you to have reasonable heat when temperatures get colder. Of course too you get a more conventional front engine layout.

For a classic, though, this to me is a big selling point-they are actually usable in modern traffic. They're not the fastest vehicles around by any measure, but will run 80 all day if you want them to(and yes that's true even without overdrive, although overdrive lets you run at 3200rpms at 70 rather than 4000 and 3500 at 80 rather than 4500). Not that I recommend it, or will even admit to actually having done it, but a factory high compression engine(8.8:1, as fitted in the US 62-71) won't break too much of a sweat doing 100.

For a small car, and especially a 60+ year old design of a small car, they are quite safe. The brakes are excellent with disks up front and drums in the rear. They do have engineered crumple zones, and back in the day the factory was fond of showing off crash tested cars. 70 and newer should have 3 point belts from the factory.

Like any other vehicle, classic or modern, rust is the most expensive thing you can buy. As they are unibodies, almost all panel rust will compromise the structure in some way, but they are also quite stiff and rigid compared to a lot of their contemporaries. Other than that, most parts are available easily. The engine sometimes is called a bit crude or agricultural, but it is amazingly reliable(and plenty of shops that work on them can tell you stories of "how was this thing running" cars that were driven to them) and of course simple. They can be built up a bit hotter without too much trouble. Learn how the SU carbs work and learn to work on them and you'll be rewarded with a great running car that makes great power across the whole RPM band.

I thought MGBs were infamously unreliable, hence the Miata correcting their fatal flaw.

 

[bunnspecial]

I thought MGBs were infamously unreliable, hence the Miata correcting their fatal flaw.

Most old cars are unreliable if you are using the Miata or really any 30 year old Japanese car as your metric.

The big joke with a lot of British cars-not just MGBs-relate to electrical problems. Truth be told, the wiring on MGBs is dead simple and a lot of issues can be traced to bad grounds. Bad grounds, BTW, cause issues on pretty much all old cars.

If I had to criticize the MGB wiring, I'd point to two specific things. The first is that they are pretty dramatically underfused(early cars only had two, late ones had 5, a lot in the middle had 4, with a lot of major circuits like the fuel pump and ignition being unfused). The second is that accessories tend to be directly switches and in stock configuration there's only a single relay in the car. This second isn't uncommon on older vehicles, but to show what I mean I'll use the headlights as an example. A wire comes off the fuse box and runs to the headlight switch on the dashboard. Wires then come out of the switch in the dashboard and run to the headlights. A modern arrangement would be to have the dashboard switch activate a relay that switches the lights on and off.

I've done a couple of things to the electrical system on my car. For one thing, shortly after getting it, I cleaned and then greased every single electrical connection in it. That got everything working correctly. I have since then added relays for my headlights, horn, and brakelight switch-my headlights are brighter, my horn is louder, and the awful aftermarket brake light switches don't burn up in two years now. I also have fuses on the fuel pump and overdrive(plus the headlights and horn).

Mechanically they are rock solid. People complain about SUs mostly because they don't understand them. The engines really would be right at home on a tractor-they're that simple but also that reliable. The overdrive transmission is a bit fussy about oil type and level. With that said, it's pretty unusual for overdrive trouble to keep the car from driving/moving. Overdrive issues usually just result in the transmission operating exactly the same as one without overdrive.

Are there things that break or go wrong? Yes! Does it need more maintenance than a modern car? Yes! I fought with bad points for a while, but finally found a good supplier and haven't needed to touch mine in ages(and you can get rid of the points if you want, just like you can with most old vehicles). I run an electronically-switched SU fuel pump that doesn't have points, another potentially source of issue especially in an infrequently driven vehicle.

 

[IndyIan]

Do you suppose it had a Porsche 356 engine in it? I understand some people did that swap.

There is a probably apocryphal story of the police catching someone driving a beetle and going through a radar trap at 80 or 90 miles an hour. When the officer stopped the car he demanded to see the engine, and then having been shown the Porsche 356 engine said "Yeah, that's a Volkswagen engine all right, must be something wrong with my radar set."

That would make sense, I never did get to talk to the father about the car, it was the daughter and my girlfriend who were friends.

 

[JimPghPA]

Just get one with no structural rust and you're golden. I had a 74 non-Super for a little while, just too hot in Texas to enjoy something like that. It was fun to tinker with but I never did get the running hot situation figured out. Oil temperature was on the verge of being too hot when on the highway, and me and my VW mechanic went over everything. Apparently engines can be dropped in 15 minutes. I spent an hour putting an exhaust system on it. Very easy work on. Can be challenging to keep up with traffic, especially on-ramps, so relegate it to Sunday drives. If you live in a climate where this car can't be enjoyed, I would recommend something else.
View attachment 171976

I've watched YouTube videos quite a while ago about people commonly deleting some of the ductwork for the fan for the cooling of the engine resulting in the engine running too hot. Apparently it's a common problem with the older rear engine Volkswagen Beetles.

I once car pooled between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh with someone else who owned a Volkswagen Beetle back in the seventies who was going to the same College and also and also lived in Pittsburgh.

That thing was really noisy on the highway.

One time I saw one go up in flames because the engine got so hot that it caught fire. The fire spread through the entire car and it was coming out of the broken front windshield and all the other windows. The car was a total right off.

A couple years ago I saw an online picture of what happens when a Volkswagen Beetle has a head-on within a Ford F-150. It's not pretty. Basically the front of a Volkswagen Beetle of the '70s with the rear engine has very very little up front that does anything structurally to stop intrusion of a heavier vehicle hitting the vehicle and penetrating into the passenger compartment. After I saw that picture I realize what a death trap they really are and never want to get in one again.

 

[JimPghPA]

I have a friend who has on average somewhere between 50 to 60 cars. He has someone that he knows at a scrap yard who gives him a phone call if somebody comes in to scrap a car that is basically just old but in decent shape. He can buy these cars for the scrap value. His wife is the biggest obstacle to him acquiring any more cars. That and storage room. He has two garage buildings that he owns to work on his vehicles. Another place he acquires vehicles from is whenever there is a movie production around the Pittsburgh area he picks up cars that are left over from movies. Especially movies that are based on time long ago where the cars are old.

 

[JimPghPA]

The VW Beetle that I was a passenger in between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh had a very very marginal heating system that barely managed to defrost the front windshield enough to see out of in the winter time.

Can you say leave your winter coat and hat on for the entire trip!

 

[JimPghPA]

That friend of mine who has a lot of cars was showing me a recent car that the scrap yard called him about and it was in pristine condition but it was basically an old heavy car that nobody wanted anymore. He said his wife wouldn't let him buy it but he told one of his relatives about it and they picked it up for the value that it would have gotten for the scrap metal.

 

[Trav]

The VW Beetle that I was a passenger in between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh had a very very marginal heating system that barely managed to defrost the front windshield enough to see out of in the winter time.

Can you say leave your winter coat and hat on for the entire trip!

VW made an OE gasoline heater for the bugs, it had its own ignition coil and exhaust pipe and used gasoline from the tank. Good systems that provided a lot of heat. You can still buy these used in working condition for a couple of hundred.

 

[JimPghPA]

VW made an OE gasoline heater for the bugs, it had its own ignition coil and exhaust pipe and used gasoline from the tank. Good systems that provided a lot of heat. You can still buy these used in working condition for a couple of hundred.

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View attachment 175464

I believe that gasoline heater system siphoned off premixed air and fuel after it had gone through the carburetor. I don't think those actually worked if the engine wasn't running. But even if they did if you wanted to use one of those as a standalone heater you would need a carburetor in front of it to premix the air with the fuel before it is fed to the system.

And any place such a system was installed a battery powered carbon monoxide detector would be an absolute must in case the heat exchanger between the combustion air and the air that was Heating the occupied area were to rust through or crack.

 

[wag123]

I believe that gasoline heater system siphoned off premixed air and fuel after it had gone through the carburetor. I don't think those actually worked if the engine wasn't running. But even if they did if you wanted to use one of those as a standalone heater you would need a carburetor in front of it to premix the air with the fuel before it is fed to the system.

And any place such a system was installed a battery powered carbon monoxide detector would be an absolute must in case the heat exchanger between the combustion air and the air that was Heating the occupied area were to rust through or crack.

No. The gas heater was in the trunk in the front and worked independently from the engine. It had it's own burner, stainless steel heat exchanger, igniter, electric fuel pump, thermostat, blower, safety switches, etc and could be run by itself until the battery ran down. It provided nearly instantaneous and strong heat. I know, I had one. They used heaters from several different manufacturers, I think that mine was a Stewart-Warner. It was the best thing since sliced bread in a cold state like Wisconsin. The only problem with it is that it took up a lot of of the trunk space, and they were notoriously finicky. You could also have them installed in Corvairs and Porsches. "Wheeler Dealers" had an episode where they were fixing up a VW thing that had one, and they had to repair it.

 

[michaelluscher]

A fun classic to have, but boomer-itus I know what I have prices have crept in
But don't tell @AutoMechanic
It's even a meme


I'd shop carefully before commiting to that 6 volt air cooled life
Wheeler Dealers (Edd China era) did many air cooled V.A.G projects (several Beetles/T1/T2/T3 van/914/Thing)



I highly recommend giving those a watch first

They were so proud back then

 

[Trav]

No. The gas heater was in the trunk in the front and worked independently from the engine. It had it's own burner, stainless steel heat exchanger, igniter, electric fuel pump, thermostat, blower, safety switches, etc and could be run by itself until the battery ran down. It provided nearly instantaneous and strong heat. I know, I had one. They used heaters from several different manufacturers, I think that mine was a Stewart-Warner. It was the best thing since sliced bread in a cold state like Wisconsin. The only problem with it is that it took up a lot of of the trunk space, and they were notoriously finicky. You could also have them installed in Corvairs and Porsches. "Wheeler Dealers" had an episode where they were fixing up a VW thing that had one, and they had to repair it.

Webasto made some, they still make them for modern cars. They are more complex with electronics, pumps and wireless remote but still based on the old VW design. I put one in my new Beetle and a couple of Audi cars, in winter just use the remote and it warms the engine coolant to operating temp, defrost and heats the interior to whatever temp you set it at.

When I Germany I do a junk yard take out and take pictures of everything and take every part and bracket so it is easier to install, these things are common in Germany and Webasto is the largest manufacturer for aftermarket and OE. Webasto was the OE for MB and other mechanical sunroofs for decades, a very high quality products company.

Webasto Product finder - Finden Sie Ihre perfekte Lösung

Nutzen Sie den Webasto Product finder und finden Sie schnell und effizient Ihre Lösung für Ihr Fahrzeug. Vergleichen Sie Produkte und finden Sie sofort Ihren Installationspartner in Ihrer Region.

www.webasto-comfort.com

 

[frankbee3]

Webasto made some, they still make them for modern cars. They are more complex with electronics, pumps and wireless remote but still based on the old VW design. I put one in my new Beetle and a couple of Audi cars, in winter just use the remote and it warms the engine coolant to operating temp, defrost and heats the interior to whatever temp you set it at.

When I Germany I do a junk yard take out and take pictures of everything and take every part and bracket so it is easier to install, these things are common in Germany and Webasto is the largest manufacturer for aftermarket and OE. Webasto was the OE for MB and other mechanical sunroofs for decades, a very high quality products company.

Webasto Product finder - Finden Sie Ihre perfekte Lösung

Nutzen Sie den Webasto Product finder und finden Sie schnell und effizient Ihre Lösung für Ihr Fahrzeug. Vergleichen Sie Produkte und finden Sie sofort Ihren Installationspartner in Ihrer Region.

www.webasto-comfort.com

Hi Trav, I am trying to reach you from the members section, but in the members section I cannot reach you.
I have a question about your Subaru.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Maybe try a Chevrolet Corvair? Product of a tryst between a '67 Camaro and a '66 Beetle?
and they are possibly cheaper than a Bug.

Never liked working on bug engines with all that engine shrouding. But a good choice for a non highway car. I Love the air-cooled aspect. They have a lot of character.

 

[jkasch]

No. The gas heater was in the trunk in the front and worked independently from the engine. It had it's own burner, stainless steel heat exchanger, igniter, electric fuel pump, thermostat, blower, safety switches, etc and could be run by itself until the battery ran down. It provided nearly instantaneous and strong heat. I know, I had one. They used heaters from several different manufacturers, I think that mine was a Stewart-Warner. It was the best thing since sliced bread in a cold state like Wisconsin. The only problem with it is that it took up a lot of of the trunk space, and they were notoriously finicky. You could also have them installed in Corvairs and Porsches. "Wheeler Dealers" had an episode where they were fixing up a VW thing that had one, and they had to repair it.

My ‘69 Ghia had one. Not sure if it was oem or aftermarket. Bought it used. The heat was instant. From a cold winter zero degree start, the car was toasty warm before leaving the campus parking lot. Not sure how safe it would been in a front end collision.

 

[turboseize]

Probably the most economical and easy to live with classic cars would be MB w123 and 2-series Volvos. Both are pretty solid to indestructible mechanically, both could have (expensive option, at least in Europe!) air conditioning, spare parts situation is decent (Volvo) respectively excellent (MB) and both are distinctively NOT death traps. Both are wafty and slow, except for the diesels, which are glacial.
A classic Saab (99,90, 900) will be much more dynamic (while also being safe), but will take a bit more effort to maintain.

The above are classic cars and are still totally able to do car stuff while only mildly inconveniencing the modern owner.
A beetle, on the other hand, is an anachronism. W123, w107, Volvo 240s and Saab 99/90/900 are cars from the 70s and early eighties with their development roots some ten years further in the past, while the Beetle is a pre-war design. That is a completely different world.
But then, astonishingly, there are some weird people who daily them... Heck, I even know a guy who daily drives a Mercedes 170! But this is definitely not for everybody.