Moly or Boron preference?

[ZZman]

We can see both low and high amounts of these anti wear additives in oils. Do you have a preference as to how much is in a oil? Do you like at least a small amount of each?

Is your preference based on how your car sounds or acts? (Quieter, smoother, more mpg) Or is it more an oil knowledge decision, or just a personal preference?

I prefer to see a decent amount of both moly and boron as a personal preference.

 

[buster]

Additive packages are carefully balanced. When you buy an oil you're buying a complete chemical package. Many get hung up on how much of a particular additive is in a product. Everything has to be properly balanced and only the formulators know how to do that. There is no way for a consumer to really know how much of anything should be in an oil.

With that said though, it seems most of the top tier oils are using boron in the ranges of 150-400ppm and Moly (depending on the type) anywhere from 80ppm to 800ppm. It's the final product that matters.

 

[ZZman]

Additive packages are carefully balanced. When you buy an oil you're buying a complete chemical package. Many get hung up on how much of a particular additive is in a product. Everything has to be properly balanced and only the formulators know how to do that. There is no way for a consumer to really know how much of anything should be in an oil.

With that said though, it seems most of the top tier oils are using boron in the ranges of 150-400ppm and Moly (depending on the type) anywhere from 80ppm to 800ppm. It's the final product that matters.

I knew this was going to come up. That is why I mentioned "personal" preference or how the vehicle performs. Such as many people say high moly makes their vehicles run quieter etc....

 

[ZZman]

Additive packages are carefully balanced.

I guess that also means they can be balanced for the low end of performance or the high end.

 

[Kalle.J]

Boron is not used as ONE universal compound. So discussing the amount in any oil without the makeup of the different structures is kind of pointless.

"1.6.7Boron compounds have unique combination of tribological properties. In addition, they aregenerally believed to have little if any detrimental effect on either the machine components orthe environment [82]. Therefore, research on boron based additives has considerablyincreased within the last decade. Specifically, boron compounds have been extensivelystudied as boundary lubricating oil soluble additives, solid lubricants and surface coatings[83-86]. Oil soluble organoboron compounds are promising friction modifiers, corrosioninhibitors, antioxidants and effective antiwear additives [87-91].Boron compounds are capable of forming glassy structures in a manner similar to ZnDTP butwith different glass transition temperatures [92]. It is known that crystalline or amorphousboron, boron nitride and metal boride are very hard materials. Microindentationmeasurements on Rhenium boride (ReB2) indicated an average hardness of 48 GPa under theapplied load of 0.49 N. Scratch marks left on a diamond surface confirmed its superhardnature [93]. Hard iron boride (Fe2B) can be formed on the steel surfaces improving theirhardness [94, 95]. The hardness of crystalline boron is 30 GPa and amorphous boron thinfilms can also have hardness approaching that of crystalline boron [96].In a moisture-containing environment, surface oxide of boron (B2O3) is known to react withwater forming boric acid (H3BO3), which acts as a solid lubricant (Fig. 17). The lubricity ofboric acid has been attributed to its tendency to form a triclinic crystal structure made up ofatomic layers parallel to the basal plane. In each layer, the B, O and H atoms are closelypacked and bonded to each other with covalent bonds, while the layers are held together withweak van der Waals forces. The latter facilitates the layers to easily slide with respect to eachother providing lubricity in the system [97]."

11 kinds of Boron if you scroll down here.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/boron-compounds

 

[ZZman]

Boron is not used as ONE universal compound. So discussing the amount in any oil without the makeup of the different structures is kind of pointless.

"1.6.7Boron compounds have unique combination of tribological properties. In addition, they aregenerally believed to have little if any detrimental effect on either the machine components orthe environment [82]. Therefore, research on boron based additives has considerablyincreased within the last decade. Specifically, boron compounds have been extensivelystudied as boundary lubricating oil soluble additives, solid lubricants and surface coatings[83-86]. Oil soluble organoboron compounds are promising friction modifiers, corrosioninhibitors, antioxidants and effective antiwear additives [87-91].Boron compounds are capable of forming glassy structures in a manner similar to ZnDTP butwith different glass transition temperatures [92]. It is known that crystalline or amorphousboron, boron nitride and metal boride are very hard materials. Microindentationmeasurements on Rhenium boride (ReB2) indicated an average hardness of 48 GPa under theapplied load of 0.49 N. Scratch marks left on a diamond surface confirmed its superhardnature [93]. Hard iron boride (Fe2B) can be formed on the steel surfaces improving theirhardness [94, 95]. The hardness of crystalline boron is 30 GPa and amorphous boron thinfilms can also have hardness approaching that of crystalline boron [96].In a moisture-containing environment, surface oxide of boron (B2O3) is known to react withwater forming boric acid (H3BO3), which acts as a solid lubricant (Fig. 17). The lubricity ofboric acid has been attributed to its tendency to form a triclinic crystal structure made up ofatomic layers parallel to the basal plane. In each layer, the B, O and H atoms are closelypacked and bonded to each other with covalent bonds, while the layers are held together withweak van der Waals forces. The latter facilitates the layers to easily slide with respect to eachother providing lubricity in the system [97]."

11 kinds of Boron if you scroll down here.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/boron-compounds

I wouldn't say pointless as almost all oils have a decent amount of boron in them even if they don't have a decent amount of moly.

 

[kschachn]

I wouldn't say pointless as almost all oils have a decent amount of boron in them even if they don't have a decent amount of moly.

You do not understand his post. This is the problem with thinking that the bare elements on a spectrographic analysis are “the additives” in an oil.

 

[Kalle.J]

I wouldn't say pointless as almost all oils have a decent amount of boron in them even if they don't have a decent amount of moly.

Different kinds of boron require _vastly_ different amounts to achieve their goal in the add-pack.
And several of them can be substituted by other compounds. Meaningless discussion.

Trust your oil manufacturer, and specs.

 

[Astro14]

We can see both low and high amounts of these anti wear additives in oils. Do you have a preference as to how much is in a oil? Do you like at least a small amount of each?

Is your preference based on how your car sounds or acts? (Quieter, smoother, more mpg) Or is it more an oil knowledge decision, or just a personal preference?

I prefer to see a decent amount of both moly and boron as a personal preference.

You do not understand his post. This is the problem with thinking that the bare elements on a spectrographic analysis are “the additives” in an oil.

Exactly. "Moly" and "Boron" exist in combinations with other chemical compounds.

Molybdenum and Boron are elements, they don't exist as stand alone components in oil, so asking about their levels is pointless.

Do you like your cars with more aluminum or more iron? Which one? Why?

Without knowing how the aluminum or steel is alloyed, or in which part of the car they're being used, measuring the element across the entire car is genuinely pointless. Aluminum can be high strength alloy, or low strength junk. Same with iron. Heavy, and soft, or alloyed into high strength steel that is both light and strong.

The presence of the element itself tells you nothing. It really depends on how it is used, how it is compounded with other elements.

Asking which one you like better is like asking if you like reading posts with more "R"s present or more "S"s present, without regard to how the rest of the letters are arranged into words.

What matters is the resulting performance of the final product, not the basic elements that go into the creation of the product.

 

[ZZman]

You do not understand his post. This is the problem with thinking that the bare elements on a spectrographic analysis are “the additives” in an oil.

Enlighten me more please....and do you have a preference?

 

[ZZman]

Exactly. "Moly" and "Boron" exist in combinations with other chemical compounds.

Molybdenum and Boron are elements, they don't exist as stand alone components in oil, so asking about their levels is pointless.

Do you like your cars with more aluminum or more iron? Which one? Why?

Without knowing how the aluminum or steel is alloyed, or in which part of the car they're being used, measuring the element across the entire car is genuinely pointless. Aluminum can be high strength alloy, or low strength junk. Same with iron. Heavy, and soft, or alloyed into high strength steel that is both light and strong.

The presence of the element itself tells you nothing. It really depends on how it is used, how it is compounded with other elements.

Asking which one you like better is like asking if you like reading posts with more "R"s present or more "S"s present, without regard to how the rest of the letters are arranged into words.

What matters is the resulting performance of the final product, not the basic elements that go into the creation of the product.

Then why even list these meaningless elements? And do you have a preference?

 

[ZZman]

Different kinds of boron require _vastly_ different amounts to achieve their goal in the add-pack.
And several of them can be substituted by other compounds. Meaningless discussion.

Trust your oil manufacturer, and specs.

That is a better explanation. Thank you

 

[Astro14]

Then why even list these meaningless elements? And do you have a preference?

Exactly, why list them?

My preference is for the performance of the finished, engineered, product.

Just as the letters don't make the writing, the elements don't make the product.

 

[kschachn]

Enlighten me more please....and do you have a preference?

I have a preference for the approvals an oil has or does not have. No way I have any sort of ability to predict the future performance of a motor oil based on a $30 spectrographic analysis of decomposed compounds. Maybe you do but I don’t.

So no I would not have any preference. I’m not that good at reading tea leaves.

 

[kschachn]

Then why even list these meaningless elements? And do you have a preference?

Most of a cheap UOA or VOA is in fact meaningless. Especially these days as some additives shift away from metallic based compounds. Or when trying to deduce base stock composition.

 

[ZZman]

I have a preference for the approvals an oil has or does not have. No way I have any sort of ability to predict the future performance of a motor oil based on a $30 spectrographic analysis of decomposed compounds. Maybe you do but I don’t.

So no I would not have any preference. I’m not that good at reading tea leaves.

Fair enough. Of course I want approved oils too. I just prefer mine with stouter add packs.

 

[ZZman]

Most of a cheap UOA or VOA is in fact meaningless.

Then I suppose we shouldn't have categories on here for them if they are.

 

[kschachn]

Fair enough. Of course I want approved oils too. I just prefer mine with stouter add packs.

Well when a cheap analysis starts listing “add packs” you’ll have a chance.

 

[ZZman]

Exactly, why list them?

My preference is for the performance of the finished, engineered, product.

Just as the letters don't make the writing, the elements don't make the product.

So I assume any approved oils would perform adequately.

 

[ZZman]

Well when a cheap analysis starts listing “add packs” you’ll have a chance.

Are you saying listings of the Calcium, Mag, ZDDP, Moly and Boron aren't part of the add pack?