Mobil 1 0W-40 Current PDS
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I just lost an engine to timing chain failure. I used M1 0W40 since 38K mi, engine failed at 164K. 10K OCI. The engine looked VERY dirty upon disassembly. 1998 VW GTi VR6.
I'm not sold on M1 0W40. For better or for worse, I'll run two cleaning cycles with Auto-RX and probably switch to RLI in the replacement engine.
I'm not sold on M1 0W40. For better or for worse, I'll run two cleaning cycles with Auto-RX and probably switch to RLI in the replacement engine.
Many of these German Engines appear to need non API SM rated oils to adequately protect them. RLI would be a good choice.
It's a shame you weren't using RLI/RL/Amsoil 10w-40/M1 High Mileage 10w-40 over the SM 0w-40. It sounds as if you could have benefited from higher levels of ZDDP.
Originally Posted By: itb76
I just lost an engine to timing chain failure. I used M1 0W40 since 38K mi, engine failed at 164K. 10K OCI. The engine looked VERY dirty upon disassembly. 1998 VW GTi VR6.
I'm not sold on M1 0W40. For better or for worse, I'll run two cleaning cycles with Auto-RX and probably switch to RLI in the replacement engine.
The chain tensioners on the Vr6 is a failure prone piece of [censored] and will fail regardless of oil use due to design.
164k is good,thank the M1 for that.
I just lost an engine to timing chain failure. I used M1 0W40 since 38K mi, engine failed at 164K. 10K OCI. The engine looked VERY dirty upon disassembly. 1998 VW GTi VR6.
I'm not sold on M1 0W40. For better or for worse, I'll run two cleaning cycles with Auto-RX and probably switch to RLI in the replacement engine.
The chain tensioners on the Vr6 is a failure prone piece of [censored] and will fail regardless of oil use due to design.
164k is good,thank the M1 for that.
Originally Posted By: itb76
I just lost an engine to timing chain failure. I used M1 0W40 since 38K mi, engine failed at 164K. 10K OCI. The engine looked VERY dirty upon disassembly. 1998 VW GTi VR6.
I'm not sold on M1 0W40. For better or for worse, I'll run two cleaning cycles with Auto-RX and probably switch to RLI in the replacement engine.
I'm sure that you've looked into more than described in your brief post. With that in mind, I'd encourage you not to be too quick to blame the oil. Dirty engines are often a result of a combination of factors, some of which may go unseen or undetected. A partially malfunctioning PCV would be a nice example. Over time, this alone could overcome the best oil. Any thoughts on alternate or other contributing causes?
I just lost an engine to timing chain failure. I used M1 0W40 since 38K mi, engine failed at 164K. 10K OCI. The engine looked VERY dirty upon disassembly. 1998 VW GTi VR6.
I'm not sold on M1 0W40. For better or for worse, I'll run two cleaning cycles with Auto-RX and probably switch to RLI in the replacement engine.
I'm sure that you've looked into more than described in your brief post. With that in mind, I'd encourage you not to be too quick to blame the oil. Dirty engines are often a result of a combination of factors, some of which may go unseen or undetected. A partially malfunctioning PCV would be a nice example. Over time, this alone could overcome the best oil. Any thoughts on alternate or other contributing causes?
A few updates. First off, though failures of the upper timing chain tensioners are common in the VR6, this was a failure of the lower timing chain. A close visual inspection of the chain showed what appeared to be a lot of wear in the links prior to failure.
There is no pcv valve on this car, but the pcv hoses are intact and show no leaks. Two issues did compromise the cleanliness of the intake air. (1) I was running a K&N air filter for about the last 47K miles. (2) At some point a leak developed in the Secondary Air Injection system. This is supposed to draw filtered air through the head into the exhaust for 30 seconds when the car is started cold. However when the right pipe breaks, unfiltered air can be admitted to the engine. I repaired the leak, but I don't know how long it ran this way.
The first thing I did after I completed the swap was drain the M1 0W40 from my wife's car, grabbing a sample in the process, and replace it with GC. Her car has 173K on it, and as I imagine a Mercedes M112 engine is more expensive to swap I want to use the best oil possible for it. I sent the M1 sample to Blackstone, they said I can extend my OCI from 5K to 7K. Trouble is I've been running 10K OCI's, or longer as the Mercedes FSS suggested. Her engine appears dirty inside too, though not as bad as my VW. I will run the GC to 5K, change the oil, pull a sample, and compare Blackstone results of GC to M1 0W40.
The VW is currently in the clean phase of an Auto-RX treatment using Rotella 5W40 synthetic. The replacement engine didn't look that clean either. Oh yes, I did replace the timing chains and tensioners with new when I did the swap. Rear main seal and clutch, too. And I put a stock Mann air filter back in.
As an aside, I'd run M1 15W50 in a 1980 Scirocco, 1987 GTI, and 1988 Pathfinder with great results. The Scirocco went 240K, the Nissan 215K, and both engines looked cleaner than either of the current vehicles.
There is no pcv valve on this car, but the pcv hoses are intact and show no leaks. Two issues did compromise the cleanliness of the intake air. (1) I was running a K&N air filter for about the last 47K miles. (2) At some point a leak developed in the Secondary Air Injection system. This is supposed to draw filtered air through the head into the exhaust for 30 seconds when the car is started cold. However when the right pipe breaks, unfiltered air can be admitted to the engine. I repaired the leak, but I don't know how long it ran this way.
The first thing I did after I completed the swap was drain the M1 0W40 from my wife's car, grabbing a sample in the process, and replace it with GC. Her car has 173K on it, and as I imagine a Mercedes M112 engine is more expensive to swap I want to use the best oil possible for it. I sent the M1 sample to Blackstone, they said I can extend my OCI from 5K to 7K. Trouble is I've been running 10K OCI's, or longer as the Mercedes FSS suggested. Her engine appears dirty inside too, though not as bad as my VW. I will run the GC to 5K, change the oil, pull a sample, and compare Blackstone results of GC to M1 0W40.
The VW is currently in the clean phase of an Auto-RX treatment using Rotella 5W40 synthetic. The replacement engine didn't look that clean either. Oh yes, I did replace the timing chains and tensioners with new when I did the swap. Rear main seal and clutch, too. And I put a stock Mann air filter back in.
As an aside, I'd run M1 15W50 in a 1980 Scirocco, 1987 GTI, and 1988 Pathfinder with great results. The Scirocco went 240K, the Nissan 215K, and both engines looked cleaner than either of the current vehicles.
One more thing. The rod bearings showed scuffing, more than I expected to see. Here are some [censored] (whoa, that's a VERY strict censor!) photos to illustrate...
Maybe the 10K OCIs are more of a problem than the 0W40. Maybe the timing chain would have failed anyway. If nothing else this incident made an oil geek out of me--anyone who sends used motor oil out for analysis and pores over the results is a geek by my estimation. From what I gather, my newer engines with timing chains are harder on oil than my older ones with belts. I've had good luck running M1 15W50 in my race car (a different 1987 GTI from the one I mentioned above), though I may go back to Red Line. I'll keep reading y'all's posts, and sending the occasional sample out to the lab.
FWIW the VW sees 6000 rpm every day; 7000 rpm some days. Not until it's warmed up, but it WILL see 6K. Once on the freeway I idle along at about 80 mph, which corresponds to 3300 rpm. A sixth gear would help, but alas, I only have five.
I really expected 200K from the VW, and still expect 300K from the Benz. I will try to do what it takes to achieve this.
Maybe the 10K OCIs are more of a problem than the 0W40. Maybe the timing chain would have failed anyway. If nothing else this incident made an oil geek out of me--anyone who sends used motor oil out for analysis and pores over the results is a geek by my estimation. From what I gather, my newer engines with timing chains are harder on oil than my older ones with belts. I've had good luck running M1 15W50 in my race car (a different 1987 GTI from the one I mentioned above), though I may go back to Red Line. I'll keep reading y'all's posts, and sending the occasional sample out to the lab.
FWIW the VW sees 6000 rpm every day; 7000 rpm some days. Not until it's warmed up, but it WILL see 6K. Once on the freeway I idle along at about 80 mph, which corresponds to 3300 rpm. A sixth gear would help, but alas, I only have five.
I really expected 200K from the VW, and still expect 300K from the Benz. I will try to do what it takes to achieve this.
That's quite gory looking. I don't know enough to give you any specific advice as to how it ended up that way. Most mechanical failures seem to be from a combination of factors that together break the system. Giving the entire engine, viewed as a system, proper TLC will do the most to extend its life. It sounds like you realize this now so I'm talking to the choir. 
I appreciate you sharing the info and am curious if you had a UOA sample just prior to the chain failure.
I would be very interested to see how the numbers were prior to it and if you had any signs that it would happen.
I have Mobil 1 in my car right now, 1,8T, and will be sending it in for analysis. I plan on putting about 6000-7000 miles on this sample so I can compare it to GC.
I would be very interested to see how the numbers were prior to it and if you had any signs that it would happen.
I have Mobil 1 in my car right now, 1,8T, and will be sending it in for analysis. I plan on putting about 6000-7000 miles on this sample so I can compare it to GC.
I have never done an oil analysis until after this incident. Never even thought about it.
Great postings. Although it might not be conclusive evidence of the oil/timing chain wear connection in VW/Audi engines, this is convincing enough to raise one's eyebrows about using factory recommended 10K OCI's a bit.
itb76, before the lower timing chain failed, what symptoms where you experiencing?
I used mobil 1 0w40 in my BMW for a couple of years. I had several UOA and had high lead. Switched to a brew of castrol syntec 10w40 & 5w50 and my lead level is dropping with each oil/filter change. I just think some engines such as mine like heaver oil.
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
0W-40 is always a compromise viscosity, but when a formulator tries to be all things to all people, and has an HT/HS of 3.7, you know that they are pulling tricks with VIIs. It's a big spec game, since HT/HS is only measured on new oil, not oil where the viscosity index improvers have been degraded by operation in the engine. Once the VIIs shear, all that supposed advanced shear protection is gone.
Not entirely accurate. This oil really never drops it's HT/HS protection below 3.5 and is using one of the best VII on the market.
Quote:
suffer oxidative thickening and harming the performance of the oil at or below the 40c mark during cold weather and the warm up phase which is something the ACEA has become increasingly aware of .
0W-40 is always a compromise viscosity, but when a formulator tries to be all things to all people, and has an HT/HS of 3.7, you know that they are pulling tricks with VIIs. It's a big spec game, since HT/HS is only measured on new oil, not oil where the viscosity index improvers have been degraded by operation in the engine. Once the VIIs shear, all that supposed advanced shear protection is gone.
Not entirely accurate. This oil really never drops it's HT/HS protection below 3.5 and is using one of the best VII on the market.
Quote:
suffer oxidative thickening and harming the performance of the oil at or below the 40c mark during cold weather and the warm up phase which is something the ACEA has become increasingly aware of .
Buster,
you know that how? There are people who have seen M1 0W-40 breakdown to a 20W under high temperatures in turbocharged engines. Since HTHS and cSt 100C viscosity are related, and HTHS tracks percentage change of cSt 100C viscosity, I find it hard to believe that the oil maintained it's HTHS protection. I've found some instances where cSt 100C viscosity dropped to 10.6, which would mean that HTHS dropped to around 2.8
Unless you have inside knowledge of the M1 0W-40 formulation, there is no way that you can say that it is "using one of the best VII on the market."
you know that how? There are people who have seen M1 0W-40 breakdown to a 20W under high temperatures in turbocharged engines. Since HTHS and cSt 100C viscosity are related, and HTHS tracks percentage change of cSt 100C viscosity, I find it hard to believe that the oil maintained it's HTHS protection. I've found some instances where cSt 100C viscosity dropped to 10.6, which would mean that HTHS dropped to around 2.8
Unless you have inside knowledge of the M1 0W-40 formulation, there is no way that you can say that it is "using one of the best VII on the market."
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Buster,
you know that how? There are people who have seen M1 0W-40 breakdown to a 20W under high temperatures in turbocharged engines. Since HTHS and cSt 100C viscosity are related, and HTHS tracks percentage change of cSt 100C viscosity, I find it hard to believe that the oil maintained it's HTHS protection. I've found some instances where cSt 100C viscosity dropped to 10.6, which would mean that HTHS dropped to around 2.8
Unless you have inside knowledge of the M1 0W-40 formulation, there is no way that you can say that it is "using one of the best VII on the market."
Hi RI. I've spoken with someone at Mobil about this oil. People are using this oil on the track with great success according to some that race with it. Porsche race teams are indeed using this oil. I have no experience with it, but from those that I've talked to that do use it, it's worked very well. The oil is certainly a compromise in some aspects, but it's built better than you may think IMO.
Most, not all, good PAO/Ester based oils around the 11.5> have a HT/HS of 3.5. Viscosity usually drops to about 12 cSt on avg in high stress applications. This oil starts at 14.0 cSt and over the course of a long drain, which is what this oil is designed for (TBN of 11.5) will thicken back up over time. According to someone on this forum quite familiar with this oil, it's contains significant Grp V base oil component. This is probably why this oil keeps engines remarkably clean.
It's also designed to handle soot, meet fuel economy specs etc. When you look at the key OEM specs it meets, it becomes more impressive of an oil IMO.
I'm sure Porsche/Mercedes could have requested a 5w-40 with low/none VII's for their cars. XOM makes a 5w-40 specifically for VW in Europe.
Most wear with M1 products seems to be avg at best via UOA's. However, knowing some of the specific Porsche testing they perform, it wouldn't concern me.
This doesn't mean that some cars, such as your Audi, would do better on another oil. Heavy fuel dilution is an engine problem design in my view and as you experienced yourself, only one oil successfully performed well under those conditions.
Buster,
you know that how? There are people who have seen M1 0W-40 breakdown to a 20W under high temperatures in turbocharged engines. Since HTHS and cSt 100C viscosity are related, and HTHS tracks percentage change of cSt 100C viscosity, I find it hard to believe that the oil maintained it's HTHS protection. I've found some instances where cSt 100C viscosity dropped to 10.6, which would mean that HTHS dropped to around 2.8
Unless you have inside knowledge of the M1 0W-40 formulation, there is no way that you can say that it is "using one of the best VII on the market."
Hi RI. I've spoken with someone at Mobil about this oil. People are using this oil on the track with great success according to some that race with it. Porsche race teams are indeed using this oil. I have no experience with it, but from those that I've talked to that do use it, it's worked very well. The oil is certainly a compromise in some aspects, but it's built better than you may think IMO.
Most, not all, good PAO/Ester based oils around the 11.5> have a HT/HS of 3.5. Viscosity usually drops to about 12 cSt on avg in high stress applications. This oil starts at 14.0 cSt and over the course of a long drain, which is what this oil is designed for (TBN of 11.5) will thicken back up over time. According to someone on this forum quite familiar with this oil, it's contains significant Grp V base oil component. This is probably why this oil keeps engines remarkably clean.
It's also designed to handle soot, meet fuel economy specs etc. When you look at the key OEM specs it meets, it becomes more impressive of an oil IMO.
I'm sure Porsche/Mercedes could have requested a 5w-40 with low/none VII's for their cars. XOM makes a 5w-40 specifically for VW in Europe.
Most wear with M1 products seems to be avg at best via UOA's. However, knowing some of the specific Porsche testing they perform, it wouldn't concern me.
This doesn't mean that some cars, such as your Audi, would do better on another oil. Heavy fuel dilution is an engine problem design in my view and as you experienced yourself, only one oil successfully performed well under those conditions.
HTHS % decrease is about 1/2 the KV @ 100C % decrease. See slide 8 of http://www.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-05-25/052501ATT12.PDF
This has been discovered as far back as the 1980s as well.
As an example, assuming initial KV @ 100C of 14 cst and initial HTHS of 3.7 cP, if the final KV is 12.5 cst, the final HTHS is ~ 3.50 cst. In the example given above of final KV of 10.6 cst, the final HTHS would be ~ 3.25 cst.
This has been discovered as far back as the 1980s as well.
As an example, assuming initial KV @ 100C of 14 cst and initial HTHS of 3.7 cP, if the final KV is 12.5 cst, the final HTHS is ~ 3.50 cst. In the example given above of final KV of 10.6 cst, the final HTHS would be ~ 3.25 cst.
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