I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
Manual Transmission?
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Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jigen
I've driven manual transmissions that made me wish I was in an auto (mainly toyotas with their super light and lack of engagement clutches come to mind). My car has one of the best manuals I've driven, probably one of the reasons it's only available in stick shift.
Months ago I was shopping 2009-2013 Corollas, and had the same opinion. 4spd auto vs 5spd manual, absolutely the same driving experience. The 6spd manual in the newest ones was better but my VW 5spd was still better. Versa and Mirage were better than Toyota but still... not all that good. The market isn't there, so the makers could not care less.
I suspect to get a "good" trans you either take a gamble (VW) or spend big bucks (BMW? or even higher).
For an everyday daily driver, I have always liked the 5 speed manuals I've tried in a VW. Even moreso than the 6 speed paired with a lot of the 2.0T's.
Originally Posted By: jigen
I've driven manual transmissions that made me wish I was in an auto (mainly toyotas with their super light and lack of engagement clutches come to mind). My car has one of the best manuals I've driven, probably one of the reasons it's only available in stick shift.
Months ago I was shopping 2009-2013 Corollas, and had the same opinion. 4spd auto vs 5spd manual, absolutely the same driving experience. The 6spd manual in the newest ones was better but my VW 5spd was still better. Versa and Mirage were better than Toyota but still... not all that good. The market isn't there, so the makers could not care less.
I suspect to get a "good" trans you either take a gamble (VW) or spend big bucks (BMW? or even higher).
For an everyday daily driver, I have always liked the 5 speed manuals I've tried in a VW. Even moreso than the 6 speed paired with a lot of the 2.0T's.
Originally Posted By: jigen
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jigen
I've driven manual transmissions that made me wish I was in an auto (mainly toyotas with their super light and lack of engagement clutches come to mind). My car has one of the best manuals I've driven, probably one of the reasons it's only available in stick shift.
Months ago I was shopping 2009-2013 Corollas, and had the same opinion. 4spd auto vs 5spd manual, absolutely the same driving experience. The 6spd manual in the newest ones was better but my VW 5spd was still better. Versa and Mirage were better than Toyota but still... not all that good. The market isn't there, so the makers could not care less.
I suspect to get a "good" trans you either take a gamble (VW) or spend big bucks (BMW? or even higher).
For an everyday daily driver, I have always liked the 5 speed manuals I've tried in a VW. Even moreso than the 6 speed paired with a lot of the 2.0T's.
It does take a different "attitude" and "sense of engagement" with electronic clutches...you have to judge it by distance the pedal is depressed/released rather than by "feel" that's not there....
and...
I too like the idea of a 5-speed MT over 6 speeds as there is a wider torque range for easy driving in traffic...less shifting needed...I can and often stay in 2nd from a rolling start to 20 in dense traffic, comfortably in 3rd from 15 to 35 and use engine rpm braking...
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jigen
I've driven manual transmissions that made me wish I was in an auto (mainly toyotas with their super light and lack of engagement clutches come to mind). My car has one of the best manuals I've driven, probably one of the reasons it's only available in stick shift.
Months ago I was shopping 2009-2013 Corollas, and had the same opinion. 4spd auto vs 5spd manual, absolutely the same driving experience. The 6spd manual in the newest ones was better but my VW 5spd was still better. Versa and Mirage were better than Toyota but still... not all that good. The market isn't there, so the makers could not care less.
I suspect to get a "good" trans you either take a gamble (VW) or spend big bucks (BMW? or even higher).
For an everyday daily driver, I have always liked the 5 speed manuals I've tried in a VW. Even moreso than the 6 speed paired with a lot of the 2.0T's.
It does take a different "attitude" and "sense of engagement" with electronic clutches...you have to judge it by distance the pedal is depressed/released rather than by "feel" that's not there....
and...
I too like the idea of a 5-speed MT over 6 speeds as there is a wider torque range for easy driving in traffic...less shifting needed...I can and often stay in 2nd from a rolling start to 20 in dense traffic, comfortably in 3rd from 15 to 35 and use engine rpm braking...
With the 6 speed manual (I admit I've only driven one just once) in a car, I skipped second and went straight into third in my sister's Cruze.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
they need to get checked for low T
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
they need to get checked for low T
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
It does take a different "attitude" and "sense of engagement" with electronic clutches...you have to judge it by distance the pedal is depressed/released rather than by "feel" that's not there....
and...
Electronic clutches? Not following. Are you talking about about automated manuals? which we weren't talking about.
The clutch in my Camry is... actually I'm not sure what, but I suspect it's hydraulic. It's also pretty vague, and I swear, the takeup is variable.
Quote:
I too like the idea of a 5-speed MT over 6 speeds as there is a wider torque range for easy driving in traffic...less shifting needed...I can and often stay in 2nd from a rolling start to 20 in dense traffic, comfortably in 3rd from 15 to 35 and use engine rpm braking...
The six speed in my Camry has 5th and 6th spaced very close together. So I like to refer to it as a 5.5 speed. Realistically the gear splits ought to narrow up in the higher gears, but IMO, at least on the sixes I've driven, sixth is still too short. It's ok to have a gear that only really comes into its own at 65+ -- and which may need to be shifted out of on hills.
It does take a different "attitude" and "sense of engagement" with electronic clutches...you have to judge it by distance the pedal is depressed/released rather than by "feel" that's not there....
and...
Electronic clutches? Not following. Are you talking about about automated manuals? which we weren't talking about.
The clutch in my Camry is... actually I'm not sure what, but I suspect it's hydraulic. It's also pretty vague, and I swear, the takeup is variable.
Quote:
I too like the idea of a 5-speed MT over 6 speeds as there is a wider torque range for easy driving in traffic...less shifting needed...I can and often stay in 2nd from a rolling start to 20 in dense traffic, comfortably in 3rd from 15 to 35 and use engine rpm braking...
The six speed in my Camry has 5th and 6th spaced very close together. So I like to refer to it as a 5.5 speed. Realistically the gear splits ought to narrow up in the higher gears, but IMO, at least on the sixes I've driven, sixth is still too short. It's ok to have a gear that only really comes into its own at 65+ -- and which may need to be shifted out of on hills.
From my experience in test driving some of the manual econoboxes, there's some significant differences in the ratios. Some weird gear spacing vs. the automatic version and a short, high revving 5th or 6th gear...which is a deal breaker for me. I'll be [censored] if I want to do 3300 RPMs at 70 mph.
Last year, Honda put in a 6 spd. manual in the Fit but they didn't change anything to the extent that the old 5 spd. had the same RPMs at 70 mph as the new 6 speed. That's lame in my estimation.
I personally think the Cruze has too tall a top gear mated to their 1.4T and an otherwise good commuter car like a newer Hyundai Accent has some manual gear spacing weirdness between 2nd and 5th and 6th is fine. I owned a 2003 Corolla with a 5 spd manual that was the worst manual transmission I've ever experienced. Like mentioned above, it's like they didn't care. Based on those experiences, it might be hard to state absolutes about some of these cars based on their having a 5 or 6 speed transmission.
Last year, Honda put in a 6 spd. manual in the Fit but they didn't change anything to the extent that the old 5 spd. had the same RPMs at 70 mph as the new 6 speed. That's lame in my estimation.
I personally think the Cruze has too tall a top gear mated to their 1.4T and an otherwise good commuter car like a newer Hyundai Accent has some manual gear spacing weirdness between 2nd and 5th and 6th is fine. I owned a 2003 Corolla with a 5 spd manual that was the worst manual transmission I've ever experienced. Like mentioned above, it's like they didn't care. Based on those experiences, it might be hard to state absolutes about some of these cars based on their having a 5 or 6 speed transmission.
Originally Posted By: supton
KitaCam said:
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
they need to get checked for low T
Learn how to drive a 13 speed son and you'll understand.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
they need to get checked for low T
Learn how to drive a 13 speed son and you'll understand.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
they need to get checked for low T
Learn how to drive a 13 speed son and you'll understand.
I can drive that, drive it in circles right around 'ya bub.
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
they need to get checked for low T
Learn how to drive a 13 speed son and you'll understand.
I can drive that, drive it in circles right around 'ya bub.
I'm one of the few people that don't like driving manuals that much. I also have a bad left knee that doesn't stand up to much clutch action. I just prefer to get in and go without having to think about what gear I should be in. I don't feel "more connected to the vehicle" like a lot of people like to claim about why they enjoy a manual.
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
From my experience in test driving some of the manual econoboxes, there's some significant differences in the ratios. Some weird gear spacing vs. the automatic version and a short, high revving 5th or 6th gear...which is a deal breaker for me. I'll be [censored] if I want to do 3300 RPMs at 70 mph.
Last year, Honda put in a 6 spd. manual in the Fit but they didn't change anything to the extent that the old 5 spd. had the same RPMs at 70 mph as the new 6 speed. That's lame in my estimation.
I personally think the Cruze has too tall a top gear mated to their 1.4T and an otherwise good commuter car like a newer Hyundai Accent has some manual gear spacing weirdness between 2nd and 5th and 6th is fine. I owned a 2003 Corolla with a 5 spd manual that was the worst manual transmission I've ever experienced. Like mentioned above, it's like they didn't care. Based on those experiences, it might be hard to state absolutes about some of these cars based on their having a 5 or 6 speed transmission.
My Civic does 3500 at 65 and 4200 at 80. Blows the carbon out...
From my experience in test driving some of the manual econoboxes, there's some significant differences in the ratios. Some weird gear spacing vs. the automatic version and a short, high revving 5th or 6th gear...which is a deal breaker for me. I'll be [censored] if I want to do 3300 RPMs at 70 mph.
Last year, Honda put in a 6 spd. manual in the Fit but they didn't change anything to the extent that the old 5 spd. had the same RPMs at 70 mph as the new 6 speed. That's lame in my estimation.
I personally think the Cruze has too tall a top gear mated to their 1.4T and an otherwise good commuter car like a newer Hyundai Accent has some manual gear spacing weirdness between 2nd and 5th and 6th is fine. I owned a 2003 Corolla with a 5 spd manual that was the worst manual transmission I've ever experienced. Like mentioned above, it's like they didn't care. Based on those experiences, it might be hard to state absolutes about some of these cars based on their having a 5 or 6 speed transmission.
My Civic does 3500 at 65 and 4200 at 80. Blows the carbon out...
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
With the 6 speed manual (I admit I've only driven one just once) in a car, I skipped second and went straight into third in my sister's Cruze.
A number of the 6 speed performance cars have a 1-4 skip shift feature that were put in to avoid a gas guzzler tax. So if someone is indeed lazy for most of their manual shift drving, but occasionally wants to row through the gears....just leave the skip shift feature in. Most of your driving can be done from 3rd to 4th once underway with about the same feel as a slush box.
Learning to drive a manual transmission properly is not easy. So if one expects to become proficient by just commuting, it's probably never going to be "exciting" for you. Learning rev matching and heel and toe downshifting are skills that require a lot of practice. I suspect a large % of manual trans commuters never bother with either. And I could see why the manual trans would appear to be nothing challenging or exciting to them.
With the 6 speed manual (I admit I've only driven one just once) in a car, I skipped second and went straight into third in my sister's Cruze.
A number of the 6 speed performance cars have a 1-4 skip shift feature that were put in to avoid a gas guzzler tax. So if someone is indeed lazy for most of their manual shift drving, but occasionally wants to row through the gears....just leave the skip shift feature in. Most of your driving can be done from 3rd to 4th once underway with about the same feel as a slush box.
Learning to drive a manual transmission properly is not easy. So if one expects to become proficient by just commuting, it's probably never going to be "exciting" for you. Learning rev matching and heel and toe downshifting are skills that require a lot of practice. I suspect a large % of manual trans commuters never bother with either. And I could see why the manual trans would appear to be nothing challenging or exciting to them.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
That's the problem with having a job - it makes doing an activity outside of work seem 'dull' or 'annoying'. Most people like chocolate, but if you work in a chocolate factory you get sick of the sight and smell of it pretty quickly.
So I can understand why they feel the way they do - but at the same time I think they should've chosen different jobs so they could actually enjoy driving. It's one of life's great pleasures
I usually prefer a manual, but there are a lot of guys at work who refuse to buy one because they are tired of shifting gears all day in the big truck. They want to relax in their car or p/u truck.
That's the problem with having a job - it makes doing an activity outside of work seem 'dull' or 'annoying'. Most people like chocolate, but if you work in a chocolate factory you get sick of the sight and smell of it pretty quickly.
So I can understand why they feel the way they do - but at the same time I think they should've chosen different jobs so they could actually enjoy driving. It's one of life's great pleasures
Originally Posted By: wtd
I'm one of the few people that don't like driving manuals that much. I also have a bad left knee that doesn't stand up to much clutch action. I just prefer to get in and go without having to think about what gear I should be in. I don't feel "more connected to the vehicle" like a lot of people like to claim about why they enjoy a manual.
The left knee thing makes sense, but the second comment about thinking which gear to be in makes no sense at all. It's like saying you have to think about which leg to put forward next, when you're walking in a straight line. No thought required at all.
Also, driving a manual doesn't feel 'more connected', it's just that an automatic feels distinctley disconnected.
I'm one of the few people that don't like driving manuals that much. I also have a bad left knee that doesn't stand up to much clutch action. I just prefer to get in and go without having to think about what gear I should be in. I don't feel "more connected to the vehicle" like a lot of people like to claim about why they enjoy a manual.
The left knee thing makes sense, but the second comment about thinking which gear to be in makes no sense at all. It's like saying you have to think about which leg to put forward next, when you're walking in a straight line. No thought required at all.
Also, driving a manual doesn't feel 'more connected', it's just that an automatic feels distinctley disconnected.
Originally Posted By: supton
I've never learned heel-toe downshifting. Way too aggressive for me, after looking up what it means.
It's not aggressive at all, in fact when done properly it is the most sympathetic way to change gear and places the least amount of stress on driveline components.
I've never learned heel-toe downshifting. Way too aggressive for me, after looking up what it means.
It's not aggressive at all, in fact when done properly it is the most sympathetic way to change gear and places the least amount of stress on driveline components.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Learning to drive a manual transmission properly is not easy. So if one expects to become proficient by just commuting, it's probably never going to be "exciting" for you. Learning rev matching and heel and toe downshifting are skills that require a lot of practice. I suspect a large % of manual trans commuters never bother with either. And I could see why the manual trans would appear to be nothing challenging or exciting to them.
I could care less about that type of shifting yet my wife(92 Integra GSR & 05 Legacy turbo wagon) and I enjoy driving manual transmissions coupled to decent engines much more for the last 25 years of our driving life.
Learning to drive a manual transmission properly is not easy. So if one expects to become proficient by just commuting, it's probably never going to be "exciting" for you. Learning rev matching and heel and toe downshifting are skills that require a lot of practice. I suspect a large % of manual trans commuters never bother with either. And I could see why the manual trans would appear to be nothing challenging or exciting to them.
I could care less about that type of shifting yet my wife(92 Integra GSR & 05 Legacy turbo wagon) and I enjoy driving manual transmissions coupled to decent engines much more for the last 25 years of our driving life.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: supton
I've never learned heel-toe downshifting. Way too aggressive for me, after looking up what it means.
It's not aggressive at all, in fact when done properly it is the most sympathetic way to change gear and places the least amount of stress on driveline components.
Bah. Rev matching is. Working all three pedals at once means slipping the clutch and riding the brakes simultaneously. Which is fine if you're racing. For sedate driving? That's just intentional wear and tear.
Coast in gear to scrub speed, burp the motor and downshift if needed. When accelerating, wait for engine speed to drop before releasing the clutch and/or release clutch slowly. If you have to brake going into the turn then you're going faster than needed. Which may well be fun but "wear" is wear.
Originally Posted By: supton
I've never learned heel-toe downshifting. Way too aggressive for me, after looking up what it means.
It's not aggressive at all, in fact when done properly it is the most sympathetic way to change gear and places the least amount of stress on driveline components.
Bah. Rev matching is. Working all three pedals at once means slipping the clutch and riding the brakes simultaneously. Which is fine if you're racing. For sedate driving? That's just intentional wear and tear.
Coast in gear to scrub speed, burp the motor and downshift if needed. When accelerating, wait for engine speed to drop before releasing the clutch and/or release clutch slowly. If you have to brake going into the turn then you're going faster than needed. Which may well be fun but "wear" is wear.
You don't have to slip the clutch or ride the brakes, and heel&toe isn't always about gong as fast as possible, often it is about making the downshift as seamless as possible so as not to upset the balance of the car.
You can apply the skill in different contexts to achieve different results
You can apply the skill in different contexts to achieve different results
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