Joined the dark side-second OCI on a filter

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I've been doing this for years on several cars. Funny I have a car now that actually recommends it (Honda Accord).

I do use well built filters though. M1, P1, Fram Ultra now and forever.

No problems, ever. I never took them off to drain between changes either. Just leave them on, less chance of any funny business. Filters always look fine when they come off.
 
My '12 Accord OM recommends filter changes every other OCI as well.
I may not do that with this car, though, since I intend to follow the MM WRT OCIs, and it looks like a typical oil change interval will be 8-9K as I drive the car.
The car just hit 80% oil life after 2.2K this morning.
 
Originally Posted By: daman
I would have at least removed the filter drained it good then reinstalled it,thats what i do with my NP that I'm running two OCI with.

there's allot of dirty oil still in a installed filter.


There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that.
Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.

Honda (and others) don't recommend changing the oil filter every other time to save the owner the cost of a filter. They recommend it to save the engine the cost of twice as many dry starts.
 
I'd worry about the gasket after removing it and putting it back on. For me, if the filter comes off, it is done. By the way the supertech filters' gaskets seem to pop off and roll on the ground on removal, and that is scary to me.
 
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Meh... These things are cheap enough for me to change every oci. Tearing a filter apart?... Nah. About the most conscientious (environmentally friendly) thing that I'll do is right before I sh!t-can the filter I'll flip it over and rap it on its base about a dozen times to get whatever leftover oil is trapped in there, and then try for a 3 point shot into the trash.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: daman
I would have at least removed the filter drained it good then reinstalled it,thats what i do with my NP that I'm running two OCI with.

there's allot of dirty oil still in a installed filter.


There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that.
Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.

Honda (and others) don't recommend changing the oil filter every other time to save the owner the cost of a filter. They recommend it to save the engine the cost of twice as many dry starts.


But you can virtually eliminate dry starts by simply pouring fresh oil into the filter, then installing it. I don't get why so many places don't do this.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that. Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.


Is there any published test data that proves this? Not sure I buy into this "dry starts" theory since there is always a film of oil on the engine parts that protects the engine until oil pressure is achieved. In theory, every time you start an engine it's going through a "dry start" since it takes a few seconds to build oil pressure. It only takes 2~3 sec to get oil pressure after an oil filter change (with dry filter) from my experience. When I pre-fill the oil filter I can't really even tell a difference in the time to get oil pressure vs using it bone dry.

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Honda (and others) don't recommend changing the oil filter every other time to save the owner the cost of a filter. They recommend it to save the engine the cost of twice as many dry starts.


I would think it has more to do with Honda knowing that an oil filter still has plenty of life in it after one oil change depending on the conditions the car was driven.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that.
Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.

Honda (and others) don't recommend changing the oil filter every other time to save the owner the cost of a filter. They recommend it to save the engine the cost of twice as many dry starts.

That is an interesting take on Honda's fci recommendation, one I hadn't seen before. One would think though that if that was the case Honda would inform it's dealerships to strictly follow that recommendation. As it is now filter change with OC is Honda dealer SOP, and some don't even know or pretend not to know every other oc is Honda fci recommended. I realize that dealerships are out maximize profit but still if dry start wear from oil filter change was a big issue at least some would follow the recommendation.

I suspect the Honda fci recommendation has more to do with a lowered advertised cost of maintenance for Honda. That and Honda's oem filters are relatively inefficient, and only by the second oci are they approaching some kind fair efficiency. But that is JMO.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that. Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.


Is there any published test data that proves this? Not sure I buy into this "dry starts" theory since there is always a film of oil on the engine parts that protects the engine until oil pressure is achieved. In theory, every time you start an engine it's going through a "dry start" since it takes a few seconds to build oil pressure. It only takes 2~3 sec to get oil pressure after an oil filter change (with dry filter) from my experience. When I pre-fill the oil filter I can't really even tell a difference in the time to get oil pressure vs using it bone dry.



The only function an Anti-Drainback Valve has is to prevent a Dry Start.

Why do you think that is?
 
I quit prefilling my filters. It was messy and I simply couldn't tell any difference between doing so and not. I don't get any start up clatter or anything, but then again the vehicle has only sat 30 minutes or so and should still have a good film of oil.

I will do multiple OCI's on a filter though without hesitation, just depends on circumstances and the filter. For example I've never had a problem out of an orange can but I don't like to run them more than 5k either, so those are not a good candidate for multiple OCI's IMO. The Motorcraft I have on now was used for part of the last OCI and will run through this one's duration as well.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that. Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.


Is there any published test data that proves this? Not sure I buy into this "dry starts" theory since there is always a film of oil on the engine parts that protects the engine until oil pressure is achieved. In theory, every time you start an engine it's going through a "dry start" since it takes a few seconds to build oil pressure. It only takes 2~3 sec to get oil pressure after an oil filter change (with dry filter) from my experience. When I pre-fill the oil filter I can't really even tell a difference in the time to get oil pressure vs using it bone dry.



The only function an Anti-Drainback Valve has is to prevent a Dry Start.

Why do you think that is?


Sure ... so if an ADBV doesnt' hold oil in the filter, then every time you start the engine it's a "dry start". Again ... is there any hard test data that shows this kind of "dry start" contributes to 10X the engine wear as you've claimed?
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: daman
I would have at least removed the filter drained it good then reinstalled it,thats what i do with my NP that I'm running two OCI with.

there's allot of dirty oil still in a installed filter.


There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that.
Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.

Honda (and others) don't recommend changing the oil filter every other time to save the owner the cost of a filter. They recommend it to save the engine the cost of twice as many dry starts.

So its ten times? or 8 or 30?? how do you know exactly, ran and experiment? link to your findings?

The second or two it takes to circulate oil with a empty filter is mute no concerns in the life of that engine,you do realize after a pan drain there still is oil residue left on the main bearings rod bearings cam bearing surfaces/journals?

we have filters here that hold 3 and more qts, dry start ups is no issue or IF it is its very very minor form what Ive seen from the internals of any engine.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that. Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.


Is there any published test data that proves this? Not sure I buy into this "dry starts" theory since there is always a film of oil on the engine parts that protects the engine until oil pressure is achieved. In theory, every time you start an engine it's going through a "dry start" since it takes a few seconds to build oil pressure. It only takes 2~3 sec to get oil pressure after an oil filter change (with dry filter) from my experience. When I pre-fill the oil filter I can't really even tell a difference in the time to get oil pressure vs using it bone dry.



The only function an Anti-Drainback Valve has is to prevent a Dry Start.

Why do you think that is?


Sure ... so if an ADBV doesnt' hold oil in the filter, then every time you start the engine it's a "dry start". Again ... is there any hard test data that shows this kind of "dry start" contributes to 10X the engine wear as you've claimed?


What was I comparing a dry start to?
The increase in wear generated by undrained oil vs new oil correct?
Even if the undrained oil is in bad condition the amount of wear caused by it, when mixed with 90% new oil, would be almost nil.
Therefore a dry start condition would be significantly more abrasive in comparison to it.
I used the "10X the wear" number arbitrarily. But my guess is that it would in fact be many times more than 10 X the wear.

Think about it for a moment.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

What was I comparing a dry start to?
The increase in wear generated by undrained oil vs new oil correct?


You are saying draining oil out of a used oil filter then reusing that oil filter was going to cause 10X+ more engine wear because of a “dry start”. See below … that’s what you’re saying in response to daman saying he likes to drain the used oil in the filter. What’s your definition of a “dry start” … one in which the filter is empty? That’s what I’m reading in your response to daman below:

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: daman
I would have at least removed the filter drained it good then reinstalled it,thats what i do with my NP that I'm running two OCI with. There's allot of dirty oil still in a installed filter.


There is ten times the amount of engine wear caused by one Dry Start as there is from the 10% residual oil left behind by not removing the filter and draining it. Probably significantly more than that.
Dry starts are the single most damaging event in an engines life.



Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

Even if the undrained oil is in bad condition the amount of wear caused by it, when mixed with 90% new oil, would be almost nil. Therefore a dry start condition would be significantly more abrasive in comparison to it. I used the "10X the wear" number arbitrarily. But my guess is that it would in fact be many times more than 10 X the wear.

Think about it for a moment.


Again … where is the proof that an oil filter that is empty when the engine is started causes 10X or more engine where than not? If that was the case, all engines would be totally worn out by 100K miles after having 20 oil changes.
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I quit prefilling my filters. It was messy and I simply couldn't tell any difference between doing so and not. I don't get any start up clatter or anything, but then again the vehicle has only sat 30 minutes or so and should still have a good film of oil.

I will do multiple OCI's on a filter though without hesitation, just depends on circumstances and the filter. For example I've never had a problem out of an orange can but I don't like to run them more than 5k either, so those are not a good candidate for multiple OCI's IMO. The Motorcraft I have on now was used for part of the last OCI and will run through this one's duration as well.


I guess it depends on the engine. Both my 07 Civic 1.8L and 98 Camry V6 chatter like crazy for a few seconds after an oil change and a dry oil filter.

With a prefill and well soaked oil filter the chatter is minimal and only for a split second.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I drained the oil from the Forester yesterday.
The engine had about 5K on the Synpower I drained.
The oil filter was (and is) a Bosch D+.
I figured that the D+ was a well constructed synthetic media filter, with ample holding capacity, and is intended for long drains.
I left the D+ on the engine and refilled the crankcase with another round of Synpower 5W-30.
I've never used a filter for more than one OCI before, but it seems to make sense to get more use from this oil filter, even if it did cost only ~$3.50 after AAP coupon code and MIR.
This seemed a sensible (and easy) choice.


So many pages in this thread I may have missed someone asking this already but here goes...

I am curious why you will run the filter for 10K but will only run the synthetic oil( Synpower )for only 5K? Why not run both to the 10K mark. IF you are going to exceed the car mfg's oil change interval and not be concerned about your warranty then why waste the oil and change it at 5K? 2 OC's on the filter will not meet warranty requirements.

Just seems odd to me how you are doing this. No offense meant by any of this.
 
i never run any filter once anymore, most filters are good for atleasat 7.5k miles...


i use them 2 or 3 times before switching out for a new one...then again i used pureone filters.

Originally Posted By: T_CUDA
I just dont understand the reason to do this. A good filter is 5 bucks and a motor is 3 grand or more. Well I hope the people in the Durham NC area do this as we have 2 repair shops there. And if you mention that u learned this from BOBTHEOILGUY I will give u 10% off your next motor job........


you have higher chance of engine failure if you replace filters more often, filters can come defective..

look through the filter section and see how well made most name brand filters are and you'll agree that most can go MANY MANY miles... Take a look especially at the used cut opened ones...
 
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Originally Posted By: garlicbreadman
i never run any filter once anymore, most filters are good for atleasat 7.5k miles...


i use them 2 or 3 times before switching out for a new one...then again i used pureone filters.

you have higher chance of engine failure if you replace filters more often, filters can come defective.


What if that filter you run 3 times was defective when new and it wasn't filtering well due to media leakage. Since it was left on 3 times, it would have been like getting 3 bad filters in a row. What are the chances of actually getting 3 filters in a row that are defective ... I'd say real close to zero. But if that one filter was defective and ran 3 times, then you've just recreated the near impossible.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I quit prefilling my filters. It was messy and I simply couldn't tell any difference between doing so and not. I don't get any start up clatter or anything, but then again the vehicle has only sat 30 minutes or so and should still have a good film of oil.

I will do multiple OCI's on a filter though without hesitation, just depends on circumstances and the filter. For example I've never had a problem out of an orange can but I don't like to run them more than 5k either, so those are not a good candidate for multiple OCI's IMO. The Motorcraft I have on now was used for part of the last OCI and will run through this one's duration as well.


I guess it depends on the engine. Both my 07 Civic 1.8L and 98 Camry V6 chatter like crazy for a few seconds after an oil change and a dry oil filter.

With a prefill and well soaked oil filter the chatter is minimal and only for a split second.



Interesting. Most peculiar is that I've struggled with start up clatter on the Jeep when the temperatures drop, after it sits a while, but oil changes do not cause it at all. The FL-400S fixed that for me though.
 
I'm approaching 20K miles on an oversized Purolator Classic and will cut it open and take pictures off a 2007 Civic. I have a Fumoto valve on the oil pan so I do drain / refill but I don't touch the filter.

There is no harm doing multiple OCI's (I did 3) if the engine is spotless inside... especially if I am using quality oil.
 
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