klingon - what specific spray lubricants will not evaporate, gum, harden, coke up , etc. at that very hot location?
I would not rely on any that I have seen.
I would not rely on any that I have seen.
Changing spark plugs - do I need Anti Seize?
- Thread starter tripleM
- Start date
Originally Posted By: klingon20
Anitsieze is not needed but a slight film of any spray lubricant will pay dividens the next time you have to remove them.
tell us that next time i'm heating a axle red hot and beating a king pin out for new bush
Lol..on plugs that see extream temps? yea right!
Anitsieze is not needed but a slight film of any spray lubricant will pay dividens the next time you have to remove them.
tell us that next time i'm heating a axle red hot and beating a king pin out for new bush
Lol..on plugs that see extream temps? yea right!
Any quality spray lubricant from your local auto parts store will be fine, if you want the to install them as recomended by Autolite click the link below you really dont even need lube on the plug threads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7_h_fAInoA
I cut my teath on 250, 300 cummins, worked on the big cam 400 also, done innerds on 6v, 8v and series 60 deitroits. Before the non-ream bushing for the spring hangers came into my world, i spent many of hours reaming spring hangers on the older Volvos that use to wear out.(you might want to revome the spring and hanger and use a press it's more efficient)
One thing i now how to use is silicone and antiseize, when working on the spark ingition engines i have not used antiseize On one spark plug (YES ON FREEZE PLUGS)
I will say again any good quality spray lube from you local auto or fleet parts store will be fine, if you are still worried then put them in dry thats what the dealer will do.
BTW i have 17 diesel mech's that work for me, seen alot of axles and rearends in my carear also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7_h_fAInoA
I cut my teath on 250, 300 cummins, worked on the big cam 400 also, done innerds on 6v, 8v and series 60 deitroits. Before the non-ream bushing for the spring hangers came into my world, i spent many of hours reaming spring hangers on the older Volvos that use to wear out.(you might want to revome the spring and hanger and use a press it's more efficient)
One thing i now how to use is silicone and antiseize, when working on the spark ingition engines i have not used antiseize On one spark plug (YES ON FREEZE PLUGS)
I will say again any good quality spray lube from you local auto or fleet parts store will be fine, if you are still worried then put them in dry thats what the dealer will do.
BTW i have 17 diesel mech's that work for me, seen alot of axles and rearends in my carear also.
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I'll use anti-seize. It makes the plugs come out nicely in a year or so when they (they're copper plugs) get changed after extreme bouts of sustained highway velocities every week.
I'll check the plugs on a Honda Fit with 25k miles on it soon. Those puppies will get anti-seized when they go back in. Then in 4 years when I take them out again, they'll be easier to remove.
I'll check the plugs on a Honda Fit with 25k miles on it soon. Those puppies will get anti-seized when they go back in. Then in 4 years when I take them out again, they'll be easier to remove.
If your only argument against anti-seize is over-torquing then just reduce it, voila!
Factory says 22 lb-ft....I use 19, but I dont see a pound or two either way making any difference at all.
Use a toothbrush to apply and you'll be safe and that $3 tube will last you many years.
Factory says 22 lb-ft....I use 19, but I dont see a pound or two either way making any difference at all.
Use a toothbrush to apply and you'll be safe and that $3 tube will last you many years.
If it has aluminum heads, the plugs get anti-seize. If they're iron, it's optional. The over-torquing bit never has been an issue for me, or torquing at all for that matter. Many vehicles have their engines situated such that the plugs are nearly impossible to get to without an arm that's triple jointed and four feet long, and as I didn't come equipped with said arm a ratchet with a goodly number of extensions and wobble joints became necessary. That's likely why the plug manufacturer approximates the torque required with a seated plus a fraction of a rotation, as it is far simpler than trying to wedge a torque wrench behind the back bank of a 4.5L Caddy motor.
BMW and Porsche say no anti seize on plugs so that's the way my new NGK plugs were installed in our BMW. Impossible to torque correctly with foreign matter on the threads.
impossible? explain.
most of us torque spark plugs by feel anyway. i have used antiseize on my plugs since 1980 without issue
A cooked grain of wild rice [spread out]is about the proper amount.
mechtech2- This analogy is slightly ambiguous to those of us who shop for wild rice in rural Canada. 4 grades available: short, medium, long, and broken bits for soup.
I buy a 5 lb bag of the long from a native American lady at a roadside stand. I get back in the car and my young son says: "you bought nails?"
mechtech2- This analogy is slightly ambiguous to those of us who shop for wild rice in rural Canada. 4 grades available: short, medium, long, and broken bits for soup.
I buy a 5 lb bag of the long from a native American lady at a roadside stand. I get back in the car and my young son says: "you bought nails?"
What type of anti-seize is best for spark plugs? I used Copper based AS last time I replaced plugs on my Hondas. I used Copper AS mainly because of its high heat rating and good conductivity. I also reduced the applied torque to 85% to 90% of spec.
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
What type of anti-seize is best for spark plugs? I used Copper based AS last time I replaced plugs on my Hondas. I used Copper AS mainly because of its high heat rating and good conductivity. I also reduced the applied torque to 85% to 90% of spec.
Copper is correct.
What type of anti-seize is best for spark plugs? I used Copper based AS last time I replaced plugs on my Hondas. I used Copper AS mainly because of its high heat rating and good conductivity. I also reduced the applied torque to 85% to 90% of spec.
Copper is correct.
Originally Posted By: sprintman
BMW and Porsche say no anti seize on plugs so that's the way my new NGK plugs were installed in our BMW. Impossible to torque correctly with foreign matter on the threads.
The automotive gods have spoken, "thou shall not use antisieze on sparkplugs" we, mere mortals that drive econoboxes, must listen
BMW and Porsche say no anti seize on plugs so that's the way my new NGK plugs were installed in our BMW. Impossible to torque correctly with foreign matter on the threads.
The automotive gods have spoken, "thou shall not use antisieze on sparkplugs" we, mere mortals that drive econoboxes, must listen
I think people will look at my limited posting history and think I have some sort of personal jihad against torque wrenches--and I guess I kinda do....
I'll preface this by saying I've spent a lot of time researching and dealing with fastener tension for applications other than cars, where the tolerances are both tighter and ultimately more finicky, and here are my general thoughts:
-putting a brand new spark plug into a brand new cylinder head with a perfectly-calibrated torque wrench is going to give you anywhere from a 50-100% variance in joint tension. IOW, it's just not that precise. Pull a crusty old plug out of a cylinder head with 50K on it and thread in a new one and you've doubled or tripled the error. A torque wrench gives people a false sense of security. If angle torque specifications are given, you're FAR better off just going with that method. So, skipping anti-seize because of the "torque value issue" is downright silly.
-If you have an engine with easy eaccess for your plugs, it probably doesn't matter. With my old I-4 and I-5 engines, I never left a plug in for more than 2 years or 40K. My current engine (Duratec 3.0) has the rear 3 plugs buried in the back, under the intiake manifold. The original plugs were in there for 75K/4.5 years. I'll do them again in 3 years, but changing these plugs is a production, and it gets pretty hot back there (the rear three were much harder to remove). Given how they came out, I was definitely using an anti-seize compound on them.
-a small, rice-grain-sized dap of anti-seize carefully applied to the threads isn't going to cause any other issues. Just don't blindly torque them down...
I'll preface this by saying I've spent a lot of time researching and dealing with fastener tension for applications other than cars, where the tolerances are both tighter and ultimately more finicky, and here are my general thoughts:
-putting a brand new spark plug into a brand new cylinder head with a perfectly-calibrated torque wrench is going to give you anywhere from a 50-100% variance in joint tension. IOW, it's just not that precise. Pull a crusty old plug out of a cylinder head with 50K on it and thread in a new one and you've doubled or tripled the error. A torque wrench gives people a false sense of security. If angle torque specifications are given, you're FAR better off just going with that method. So, skipping anti-seize because of the "torque value issue" is downright silly.
-If you have an engine with easy eaccess for your plugs, it probably doesn't matter. With my old I-4 and I-5 engines, I never left a plug in for more than 2 years or 40K. My current engine (Duratec 3.0) has the rear 3 plugs buried in the back, under the intiake manifold. The original plugs were in there for 75K/4.5 years. I'll do them again in 3 years, but changing these plugs is a production, and it gets pretty hot back there (the rear three were much harder to remove). Given how they came out, I was definitely using an anti-seize compound on them.
-a small, rice-grain-sized dap of anti-seize carefully applied to the threads isn't going to cause any other issues. Just don't blindly torque them down...
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Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
After you guys grievously pull out a bunches of sticking plugs, no one can convince you to never use anti-seize.
Yep,try pulling out a plug from a alum head that's been in there for 70+k and see how many threads you take out with it!
They'll come out just fine, at least in my experience with Hondas after 105k+.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
After you guys grievously pull out a bunches of sticking plugs, no one can convince you to never use anti-seize.
Yep,try pulling out a plug from a alum head that's been in there for 70+k and see how many threads you take out with it!
They'll come out just fine, at least in my experience with Hondas after 105k+.
many nicer plugs come with a factory anti sieze coating.
I have changed stock plugs at 250k miles with no problem in GMC aluminum head v8's.
I have changed stock plugs at 250k miles with no problem in GMC aluminum head v8's.
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
If your only argument against anti-seize is over-torquing then just reduce it, voila!
Factory says 22 lb-ft....I use 19, but I dont see a pound or two either way making any difference at all.
Use a toothbrush to apply and you'll be safe and that $3 tube will last you many years.
The use of anti-seize can significantly increase the tension in a bolt at a given torque.
This paper has some examples at 135 ftlb where the actual bolt tension increased from 25,000 lb to 43,000 lb going from untreated to cleaned and fully coated with antiseize:
http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~neliaz/Papers_Files/C27.pdf
Bolt Tension = Torque/Kd
Note the "K" factor for various antiseize compounds can be from 0.11 to 0.15. A plated bolt is about 0.16 whereas a plain bolt "K" is about 0.3.
Going from K=0.3 to K=0.15 will double the bolt tension at a given torque.
Neverseez lists some "K" values:
http://www.neverseezproducts.com/antiseize.htm
Sparkplugs come precoated with a special plating to prevent seizing and torque specs do not consider adding antiseize or any other additional lubricant. If you insist on using antisieze then it is best to put the torque wrench aside and follow the instructions on the spark plug for how far to turn past hand tight.
If your only argument against anti-seize is over-torquing then just reduce it, voila!
Factory says 22 lb-ft....I use 19, but I dont see a pound or two either way making any difference at all.
Use a toothbrush to apply and you'll be safe and that $3 tube will last you many years.
The use of anti-seize can significantly increase the tension in a bolt at a given torque.
This paper has some examples at 135 ftlb where the actual bolt tension increased from 25,000 lb to 43,000 lb going from untreated to cleaned and fully coated with antiseize:
http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~neliaz/Papers_Files/C27.pdf
Bolt Tension = Torque/Kd
Note the "K" factor for various antiseize compounds can be from 0.11 to 0.15. A plated bolt is about 0.16 whereas a plain bolt "K" is about 0.3.
Going from K=0.3 to K=0.15 will double the bolt tension at a given torque.
Neverseez lists some "K" values:
http://www.neverseezproducts.com/antiseize.htm
Sparkplugs come precoated with a special plating to prevent seizing and torque specs do not consider adding antiseize or any other additional lubricant. If you insist on using antisieze then it is best to put the torque wrench aside and follow the instructions on the spark plug for how far to turn past hand tight.
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Originally Posted By: JOD
I think people will look at my limited posting history and think I have some sort of personal jihad against torque wrenches--and I guess I kinda do....
I'll preface this by saying I've spent a lot of time researching and dealing with fastener tension for applications other than cars, where the tolerances are both tighter and ultimately more finicky, and here are my general thoughts:
-putting a brand new spark plug into a brand new cylinder head with a perfectly-calibrated torque wrench is going to give you anywhere from a 50-100% variance in joint tension. IOW, it's just not that precise. Pull a crusty old plug out of a cylinder head with 50K on it and thread in a new one and you've doubled or tripled the error. A torque wrench gives people a false sense of security. If angle torque specifications are given, you're FAR better off just going with that method. So, skipping anti-seize because of the "torque value issue" is downright silly.
-If you have an engine with easy eaccess for your plugs, it probably doesn't matter. With my old I-4 and I-5 engines, I never left a plug in for more than 2 years or 40K. My current engine (Duratec 3.0) has the rear 3 plugs buried in the back, under the intiake manifold. The original plugs were in there for 75K/4.5 years. I'll do them again in 3 years, but changing these plugs is a production, and it gets pretty hot back there (the rear three were much harder to remove). Given how they came out, I was definitely using an anti-seize compound on them.
-a small, rice-grain-sized dap of anti-seize carefully applied to the threads isn't going to cause any other issues. Just don't blindly torque them down...
Can you give any more detail about your research into fastener clamp loads?
I'm of a similar school of thought- I know what you're getting at when you talk about how much clamp load can be affected by corrosion, worn parts, lube or lack thereof, etc. In many cases (though definitely not all), I trust my own feel more than I trust a torque wrench- but I wouldn't recommend that for everybody (I've been tightening all manner of bolts on a daily basis for 15 years, so I'm pretty confident that I can get them 'close enough').
Lots of people on this site are very "by the book" in their mentality. And that's fine- 'by the book' will usually get you by just fine. But there are factors and effects that are not easily distilled into a book... nor are the authors of said 'book' necessarily concerned with how well a given procedure will work on a 10-year-old vehicle. So long as their advice is effective on a relatively new vehicle using OEM-approved parts... their job is done.
I think people will look at my limited posting history and think I have some sort of personal jihad against torque wrenches--and I guess I kinda do....
I'll preface this by saying I've spent a lot of time researching and dealing with fastener tension for applications other than cars, where the tolerances are both tighter and ultimately more finicky, and here are my general thoughts:
-putting a brand new spark plug into a brand new cylinder head with a perfectly-calibrated torque wrench is going to give you anywhere from a 50-100% variance in joint tension. IOW, it's just not that precise. Pull a crusty old plug out of a cylinder head with 50K on it and thread in a new one and you've doubled or tripled the error. A torque wrench gives people a false sense of security. If angle torque specifications are given, you're FAR better off just going with that method. So, skipping anti-seize because of the "torque value issue" is downright silly.
-If you have an engine with easy eaccess for your plugs, it probably doesn't matter. With my old I-4 and I-5 engines, I never left a plug in for more than 2 years or 40K. My current engine (Duratec 3.0) has the rear 3 plugs buried in the back, under the intiake manifold. The original plugs were in there for 75K/4.5 years. I'll do them again in 3 years, but changing these plugs is a production, and it gets pretty hot back there (the rear three were much harder to remove). Given how they came out, I was definitely using an anti-seize compound on them.
-a small, rice-grain-sized dap of anti-seize carefully applied to the threads isn't going to cause any other issues. Just don't blindly torque them down...
Can you give any more detail about your research into fastener clamp loads?
I'm of a similar school of thought- I know what you're getting at when you talk about how much clamp load can be affected by corrosion, worn parts, lube or lack thereof, etc. In many cases (though definitely not all), I trust my own feel more than I trust a torque wrench- but I wouldn't recommend that for everybody (I've been tightening all manner of bolts on a daily basis for 15 years, so I'm pretty confident that I can get them 'close enough').
Lots of people on this site are very "by the book" in their mentality. And that's fine- 'by the book' will usually get you by just fine. But there are factors and effects that are not easily distilled into a book... nor are the authors of said 'book' necessarily concerned with how well a given procedure will work on a 10-year-old vehicle. So long as their advice is effective on a relatively new vehicle using OEM-approved parts... their job is done.
