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Hot take: Modern cars are BORING

Posted By: brages

Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 06:43 PM

Cars today are far better than cars of years ago. They are unbelievably smooth and quiet. They are incredibly fast... even Grandma's Camry has 300 hp now. They are amazingly fuel efficient, reliable, and durable. Today's automatic transmissions are so good that even driving enthusiasts are picking them over the manual option.

But they are boring. Horsepower wars... 500+ hp V8's out the door. Big whoop. Who needs to go 0-60 in under four seconds in a giant insulated barge? So it's fast, big deal. How much can you actually use that speed on the road?

Consumers are trending more and more towards crossovers and SUVs. Apparently, the public doesn't care about driving excitement. Maybe they see today's crop of amazingly competent yet uninspiring cars and just let out a collective yawn. How about you, are you yawning too?
Posted By: SeaJay

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 06:48 PM

Transportation from point A to point B of varying levels of interior luxury and smoothness of ride for the vast majority. Heated seats, automatic open and close rear lift gates, heated steering wheels, backup cameras, warning lights on mirrors for fast approaching vehicles in adjacent lanes. These are the things that get many buyers excited.

There are a few performance cars that are definitely not boring for the enthusiast that want more.

The marketplace has spoken.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by brages
Cars today are far better than cars of years ago. They are unbelievably smooth and quiet. They are incredibly fast... even Grandma's Camry has 300 hp now. They are amazingly fuel efficient, reliable, and durable. Today's automatic transmissions are so good that even driving enthusiasts are picking them over the manual option.

But they are boring. Horsepower wars... 500+ hp V8's out the door. Big whoop. Who needs to go 0-60 in under four seconds in a giant insulated barge? So it's fast, big deal. How much can you actually use that speed on the road?

Consumers are trending more and more towards crossovers and SUVs. Apparently, the public doesn't care about driving excitement. Maybe they see today's crop of amazingly competent yet uninspiring cars and just let out a collective yawn. How about you, are you yawning too?


Gotta justify that price point some how.
Posted By: rooflessVW

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:02 PM

So boring!

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Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
So boring!



Pft...You probably have that outdated boxer engine (per Scotty Kilmer) and boring PDK slushbox as well.. hornets
Posted By: rooflessVW

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
So boring!

Pft...You probably have that outdated boxer engine (per Scotty Kilmer) and boring PDK slushbox as well.. hornets

Bingo bango.

Scotty Kilmer is complete garbage. How anyone takes his trash seriously I'll never know.

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Posted By: rooflessVW

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:20 PM

I just don't get the OP.

If you buy a boring car, yeah, you get a boring car.

But you can buy a Hemi Challenge with bright orange paint... Called Go Mango. What's boring about that?

Plenty of modern sports cars, muscle cars, and cool SUVs beyond the Rogue/Rav4/CRV.

There have always been boring commuter cars. They get lost to time and people always look back with rose-colored glasses.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by brages
But they are boring.
There is some truth to this, especially on the lower end of the market... I test drove Audi S6 and S5 earlier this year. In some ways they are so luxurious and refined that it detracts from the sheer driving thrill and excitement. So you have to dial down the refinement in order to gain some fun. That's how I ended up with a Charger SRT. smile Then again, one could argue that a Charger, despite being new, isn't exactly modern with its old school V8 without DI, without turbo, etc.

Now, if you go up to higher price brackets, I'm sure you've got cars like Lambo or Ferrari that can deliver on both fronts.

Posted By: d00df00d

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by brages
Cars today are far better than cars of years ago. They are unbelievably smooth and quiet. They are incredibly fast... even Grandma's Camry has 300 hp now. They are amazingly fuel efficient, reliable, and durable. Today's automatic transmissions are so good that even driving enthusiasts are picking them over the manual option.

But they are boring. Horsepower wars... 500+ hp V8's out the door. Big whoop. Who needs to go 0-60 in under four seconds in a giant insulated barge? So it's fast, big deal. How much can you actually use that speed on the road?

Consumers are trending more and more towards crossovers and SUVs. Apparently, the public doesn't care about driving excitement. Maybe they see today's crop of amazingly competent yet uninspiring cars and just let out a collective yawn. How about you, are you yawning too?

Don't have words for how strongly I agree.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
you can buy a Hemi Challenge with bright orange paint... Called Go Mango. What's boring about that?

Basically everything else about it.
Posted By: rooflessVW

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by brages
But they are boring.
There is some truth to this, especially on the lower end of the market... I test drove Audi S6 and S5 earlier this year. In some ways they are so luxurious and refined that it detracts from the sheer driving thrill and excitement. So you have to dial down the refinement in order to gain some fun. That's how I ended up with a Charger SRT. smile Then again, one could argue that a Charger, despite being new, isn't exactly modern with its old school V8 without DI, without turbo, etc.

Now, if you go up to higher price brackets, I'm sure you've got cars like Lambo or Ferrari that can deliver on both fronts.


IMHO, that's always been the MO of the the fast Germans. Autobahn rockets. Fast but still grown up. It just wasn't what you were looking for.

SRT cars are hilarious and I love how they're sprinkling the SRT love throughout the lineup. Durango? Hemi. Jeep? Hemi. Where's the Hemi minivan?
Posted By: novadude

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:00 PM

Yes, they are. They've gotten TOO refined. I actually have to DRIVE my '65 Nova with it's manual clutch linkage, 4-spd, Manual steering, etc. Might not be as fast as a modern muscle car, but there is just something about the feel, the smells, and the sounds of an old car that just cannot be replicated. A High-12second 1/4 mile feels scary fast in this primal machine.

Just my opinion.
Posted By: rooflessVW

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
you can buy a Hemi Challenge with bright orange paint... Called Go Mango. What's boring about that?

Basically everything else about it.

Really.

So a 485 HP muscle car with a manual transmission, SHAKER HOOD, fat tires, and big Brembos is "boring?" It's available in colors like Lime Crime, Plum Crazy, and Go Mango...

What excites you?
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Where's the Hemi minivan?
There were some rumors of Pacifica Hellcat some time back, but it may have just been someone's wild imagination...

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/chrysler/2017-chrysler-pacifica-hellcat-ar172693.html


Posted By: MCompact

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:08 PM

Yes, my modern DD/track car is just unimaginably dull...

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Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
you can buy a Hemi Challenge with bright orange paint... Called Go Mango. What's boring about that?

Basically everything else about it.

Really.

So a 485 HP muscle car with a manual transmission, SHAKER HOOD, fat tires, and big Brembos is "boring?" It's available in colors like Lime Crime, Plum Crazy, and Go Mango...

What excites you?
My guess is something that's about 1,500 lbs lighter. smile


Posted By: Carmudgeon

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:14 PM

Yup.

The vast majority of vehicles owners look for other things. Driving enthusiasts* are a distinct minority.

On the bright side, it's easier and cheaper to turn to old cars to get what you crave.

But the thing that is most disturbing about the horsepower wars is that the disparity between driver skill and vehicle performance has not only grown, but spread to more segments.

Modern driver aids are very beneficial in providing a safety net fo the general public, but they can also give a false sense of security, and when turned off, some cars can be downright dangerous in most hands.

It will not get any better as electric cars proliferate, and off-the-line performance formerly confined to muscle cars spreads to the general public. Those will poor judgement and/or skill can lean on that performance to make up for their deficiencies and get away with doing stupid things. I've already seen it in action.


* One can be a car enthusiast without being a driving enthusiast. There is a distinction.
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:21 PM

I would like to see cars from the 50's again. Maybe with modern safety built into them and with Electric or Hydrogen drive systems (depending on what ends up winning). I find cars today either boring or FUGLY. Like designers have just given up.
Posted By: TheLawnRanger

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:23 PM

I can see where modern cars could be considered boring. I also think there are some sharp looking models out there. For example, I saw a recent model Impala the other day that was baby blue, not a color I usually like, with just the right amount of chrome. It was a mature car with a light splash of sportiness. While it was not the most exciting car, I couldn't call it boring.
Posted By: Trav

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:41 PM

The most of them are as attractive as dog vomit especially the so called SUV and crossovers. This was voted by automotive experts as the best looking car of all time a few years ago, it doesn't hurt it had a 425 dual quad wildcat under the hood.
Bill Mitchell took Harley Earls Y job as inspiration a step further and penned the Riviera Silver arrow. Remnants of the Y Job could still be seen in the Boat tail Riviera.
IMHO these were the pinnacle of American cars until they gave the bulk of the market to the Japanese.






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Posted By: PandaBear

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:48 PM

Oh that's easy, buy an older car and drive it.

I found the 91 Escort LX I crushed a few years ago pretty exciting, on the road feel and noise level department. I just hate driving it because of the lack of AC and worn struts.

I'd like to stay with a 2600lb car and 100hp, handling well instead of going fast.
Posted By: Kestas

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:50 PM

I just read today in an industry newsletter that modern muscle cars (Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro and Corvette, and the Dodge Challenger and Charger) are waning because of the aging baby boomer population. The new kids aren't as interested in muscle cars as us older folk.
Posted By: Nick1994

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:58 PM

OP'er has a 2005 Honda Odyssey and looks like he previously had a 98' Honda Accord. Talk about boring. shrug

I like a boring car for my daily driver. It's slow, simple, reliable, comfortable, and good on gas.

My fun car is my Jeep. It isn't fast but it's 4x4 capable for exploring the desert backroads.
Posted By: NHGUY

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 08:59 PM

Just bought a well used 97 F150 with 5-speed manual transmission.....I didn't realize how much I missed driving a standard again...the idea of being proactive rather that being reactive is huge to me.
Posted By: morepwr

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 09:27 PM

New cars don't really do it for me either. I like the Challenger for sure and considered it. The Camaro and Mustang are simply not my taste looks wise even though they are good performers. Nothing else really grabs my attention except maybe some cars in the "I could not afford it if I lived to be 200" category. Lol!
Posted By: brages

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Nick1994
OP'er has a 2005 Honda Odyssey and looks like he previously had a 98' Honda Accord. Talk about boring. shrug


The Accord replaced a 1986 non-turbo Jetta diesel, so make of that what you will, lol.

Anyway, I'm not actually 100% on-board with the "hot take" provided in the original post, and I don't really have enough experience with truly modern cars to have a valid opinion. I may be clouded by nostalgia to a great extent as well. But -- I wanted to see what the folks on here thought and hoped to read some interesting discussion.
Posted By: Brigadier

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 11:00 PM

I drive a boring 2017 Hyunda Santa Fe. Smooth. Quiet, 290 HP. Yep, boring.

Do I miss my 1985 Z28 5 Spd with T-tops?



Not one bit.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 11:21 PM

I find my Jeep quite fun shrug
Posted By: maxdustington

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/04/18 11:24 PM

Different strokes man, some people just want a fast car or one that handles well. Old cars can be fast or slow and still be cool, most of the old cars I see have a stock-ish engine. No one thinks a 2018 Sonata is cooler than a 57 Chevy.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by brages
Cars today are far better than cars of years ago. They are unbelievably smooth and quiet. They are incredibly fast... even Grandma's Camry has 300 hp now. They are amazingly fuel efficient, reliable, and durable. Today's automatic transmissions are so good that even driving enthusiasts are picking them over the manual option.

But they are boring. Horsepower wars... 500+ hp V8's out the door. Big whoop. Who needs to go 0-60 in under four seconds in a giant insulated barge? So it's fast, big deal. How much can you actually use that speed on the road?

Consumers are trending more and more towards crossovers and SUVs. Apparently, the public doesn't care about driving excitement. Maybe they see today's crop of amazingly competent yet uninspiring cars and just let out a collective yawn. How about you, are you yawning too?


Not sure that we're thinking of the same thing, but there was a time when very good economy cars could be very nice to drive.
The first few generations of Civic had great shifters to compliment their 6K power peaks along with go-cart handling and fuel economy that would look good today.
Since we owned these cars back in the day and drove them for many miles, I can write this with some authority.
The Gen 5 and 6 Accords we've had were also very good driving cars, although the later cable shifters were not nearly as nice as the rod linkages on the earlier Hondas.
Putting 500 bhp in a fleet sedan merely makes for a fast version of a fleet sedan. It does not make of it a really entertaining car.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Putting 500 bhp in a fleet sedan merely makes for a fast version of a fleet sedan. It does not make of it a really entertaining car.
FYI, in case of the Charger, it's not just an engine... suspension, brakes, exhaust, trans programming are all different, which does add to the entertainment factor.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I find my Jeep quite fun shrug

That's certainly true, but look at the vast majority of vehicles offered. Of course, everyone has their own opinions, and to some, a Camry, for instance, might be very attractive and interesting, just like I find Caprices and CVs and their brethren interesting, whereas others find them boring old cars. But, I see very few interesting new vehicles out there that I'd want to buy. However, in opposition to the main topic here, I'd say that's applied for a lot of years already.

Given a reasonable handful of cash, there is little I'd want to buy on the market today. That also would apply if you transported me back to last year, the year before, and all the way back to the 1970s. Take me to 1990, and I'll like the Town Car and Caprice. I won't be jumping up and down over the Cavalier, though.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 01:38 AM

I enjoy the new Maxima. It's certainly not boring.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
you can buy a Hemi Challenge with bright orange paint... Called Go Mango. What's boring about that?

Basically everything else about it.

Really.

So a 485 HP muscle car with a manual transmission, SHAKER HOOD, fat tires, and big Brembos is "boring?" It's available in colors like Lime Crime, Plum Crazy, and Go Mango...

What excites you?
My guess is something that's about 1,500 lbs lighter. smile



Pretty much. cheers

I want handling. Not just grip. Handling. Feel, feedback, response, agility, balance, accessible and transparent limits.

I want the sensation of speed. I'm honest enough with myself to admit that the only reason I'd want to go fast is to feel like I'm going fast. If the car does the opposite, no thanks.

I want razor-sharp throttle response. I want an interior that doesn't feel like it's part of a rental fleet, like it's trying to wow me with gadgets, or like it's trying to shout at me about how much money I've spent. I want at least some semblance of authentic steering feel and feedback. I don't see driving as something to be withstood, distracted from, or insulated from; I see it as something to be actively involved in and enjoyed, and I want my car to elicit and reward that involvement.

The Challenger is almost the exact polar opposite of all of that -- except with a bunch of horsepower and "performance" bits tacked onto it, as though that changes what it is underneath. Lipstick on a pig. Again, no thanks.

Chasing speed is futile anyway. No matter what you buy today, it'll be slow in 2-3 years. But a fun car is always fun.

As for aesthetics... Is it nice to have a good looking car? Absolutely. Is it disheartening to have an ugly one? Sure. But the idea that a neat-looking exterior makes a car "nice" or "fun" is almost unintelligible to me. I basically have no intuitive understanding of cars as status symbols or fashion items. On some level I actually find the idea kind of offensive. Not saying that's right or wrong; it's just me. So no, things like SHAKER HOODs and crazy colors don't mean jack to me. The best-looking boring car on the road is still boring.

A manual transmission is a game changer. But that's not all that relevant here; one of the premises of this thread is automatics replacing manuals, and almost nobody buys a Challenger with a manual anyway.

What's an exciting car? An MX-5. A BRZ. A Cayman or Boxster. A 911. A Civic Si or Type-R. An F430. An RSX Type-S. An E28 5-Series. Even a barebones 128i is better than most cars on the road.

What's not? Most family sedans, most luxury vehicles, all crossovers, and almost all rocket sleds.
Posted By: Carmudgeon

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 02:08 AM


Originally Posted by d00df00d
Chasing speed is futile anyway. No matter what you buy today, it'll be slow in 2-3 years. But a fun car is always fun.

It's more fun to drive a slow car quickly, than a fast car slowly.
Posted By: dishdude

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 02:14 AM

I've had a few little "exciting" cars, they aren't for me. I love my fat pig of a Challenger!
Posted By: Nick1994

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by d00df00d

What's an exciting car? An MX-5. A BRZ. A Cayman or Boxster. A 911. A Civic Si or Type-R. An F430. An RSX Type-S. An E28 5-Series. Even a barebones 128i is better than most cars on the road.

What's not? Most family sedans, most luxury vehicles, all crossovers, and almost all rocket sleds.

So, Barbie sized cars?
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 03:38 AM

Whatever floats your boat. wink
Posted By: 02SE

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Carmudgeon


It's more fun to drive a slow car quickly, than a fast car slowly.


I can enjoy my fast cars even at lower speeds. The bikes on the other hand are an exercise in patience at lower speeds. Fortunately, I know of lots of lightly traveled roads away from civilization, to let 'em run a bit. grin
Posted By: madRiver

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by MCompact
Yes, my modern DD/track car is just unimaginably dull...


That car is an absolute hoot to drive but looks I know subjective are quite boring. So many great cars fall into that category.
Posted By: madRiver

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 10:24 AM

Everybody has a different version of exciting. Some consumers buy driving machines with absolute boring sedated looks(BMW, Subaru WRX, Hot hatches all) while other people just care about looks and could care less about driving experience and noise/roughness that comes with it.

I personally prefer comfort at this point in life with ample power and decent enough looks.
Posted By: SteveSRT8

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I find my Jeep quite fun shrug



Perhaps that's why they make more than one kind of vehicle.


Every person I know who has been to an SRT Track Experience and driven all the SRT vehicles agrees there is some excitement there. People without one tend to be rather critical...
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Every person I know who has been to an SRT Track Experience and driven all the SRT vehicles agrees there is some excitement there.

Anything with power is going to offer "some excitement" on a track, no?

If we're talking about street driving, it's more complicated and there are more tradeoffs involved. It ain't easy to make a car that's engaging and rewarding at low speeds with hazards and responsibilities all around.
Posted By: MCompact

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 02:44 PM

My two favorite cars are at opposite ends of the technology/speed spectrum; my 150 hp Club Sport is dead slow, running the quarter in @16 seconds. However, it is relatively light, very nimble, and it lets you know everything that is going on at the contact passage. I learned a lot about track driving in the Club Sport, as you have to conserve momentum everywhere; one mistake and you'll pay for it for another lap or two. You also have to keep the engine above 4000 rpm to make usable power.

In contrast, my 2 Series can run the quarter in an acceptably quick 13 seconds and the turbo inline six makes maximum torque from 1400-4500 rpm. It's just as much fun, but in a totally different way(for one thing, I no longer have to give 10 point-bys every lap like I had to in the Club Sport). Putting the car in Sport+ mode allows you quite a bit of latitude before the DSC kicks in, and you can disable it altogether if you choose. I especially like the ability to be able to transform the car from laid-back cruiser to track toy with the push of a button.

I've owned the Club Sport since new and intend to leave it to my son to enjoy. I probably won't keep the 2er that long, but right now the only new cars I'd consider to replace it are the M2/M2C and the Giulia Quadrifoglio.
Posted By: NGRhodes

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 06:58 PM

I learnt to drive to ABS was rare on basic cars and the small ones were still all non-power assisted. They were more fun and you have to learn better driver skills (cadence braking, modulating brake power to avoid obstacles).
What I consider fun then is considered unsafe nowadays.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/05/18 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Putting 500 bhp in a fleet sedan merely makes for a fast version of a fleet sedan. It does not make of it a really entertaining car.
FYI, in case of the Charger, it's not just an engine... suspension, brakes, exhaust, trans programming are all different, which does add to the entertainment factor.



All standard sedan into supercar stuff going back to the original fast fleet sedan GTO and nothing that a fleet special sedan owner couldn't do in his own garage at much lower cost.
The result is something that still drives like an overweight machine as quickly as it might do so.
Posted By: DBMaster

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 12:34 AM

Here is my one comment. Driving ANY car in modern traffic with modern drivers is, at best, boring. Most often, it is just maddeningly frustrating.
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 01:00 AM

For some people a V6 Camry is the epitome of exciting, for some it's a hybrid squeezing the best mpg possible, for some it's the quickest quarter mile, for some it's the corner carving ability and we can go on and on. It's because we're all so diverse in our interests that we have all sorts of great choices in the market.
Posted By: IndyIan

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by MCompact
My two favorite cars are at opposite ends of the technology/speed spectrum; my 150 hp Club Sport is dead slow, running the quarter in @16 seconds. However, it is relatively light, very nimble, and it lets you know everything that is going on at the contact passage. I learned a lot about track driving in the Club Sport, as you have to conserve momentum everywhere; one mistake and you'll pay for it for another lap or two. You also have to keep the engine above 4000 rpm to make usable power.

In contrast, my 2 Series can run the quarter in an acceptably quick 13 seconds and the turbo inline six makes maximum torque from 1400-4500 rpm. It's just as much fun, but in a totally different way(for one thing, I no longer have to give 10 point-bys every lap like I had to in the Club Sport). Putting the car in Sport+ mode allows you quite a bit of latitude before the DSC kicks in, and you can disable it altogether if you choose. I especially like the ability to be able to transform the car from laid-back cruiser to track toy with the push of a button.

I've owned the Club Sport since new and intend to leave it to my son to enjoy. I probably won't keep the 2er that long, but right now the only new cars I'd consider to replace it are the M2/M2C and the Giulia Quadrifoglio.

So which do you enjoy more to drive briskly on the street?
This last weekend my SIL got married they had a fun autocross event at their wedding reception. Anyways there was a huge range of cars and driver experience, and it was interesting how a 1997 Miata only modded with suspension to handle Hoosier slicks, was the most exciting/terrifying vehicle out there to anyone who went on a ride along. There was a 550hp 2200lb M3 hill climb special and a 2016 Z06 on RE-71's which were faster of course, but were too hard to drive at 11/10 to make you cringe at 60-70-80 mph on slalom sections.
Also people were blown away how hard on a 1992 Civic could turn with good suspension and tires.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by fdcg27
All standard sedan into supercar stuff going back to the original fast fleet sedan GTO and nothing that a fleet special sedan owner couldn't do in his own garage at much lower cost.
Yeah, I'm sure anyone can just install adaptive damping suspension or pop in a V8 engine, an upgraded transmission, and all associated hardware and software in their own garage with one hand while sipping Old Milwaukee.

Quote
The result is something that still drives like an overweight machine as quickly as it might do so.
It is heavy, no doubt. But if you want a new 4-door family sedan that's still reasonably entertaining to drive without breaking a bank on initial purchase price and on on-going maintenance and repairs, what else is there?
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Putting 500 bhp in a fleet sedan merely makes for a fast version of a fleet sedan. It does not make of it a really entertaining car.
FYI, in case of the Charger, it's not just an engine... suspension, brakes, exhaust, trans programming are all different, which does add to the entertainment factor.



All standard sedan into supercar stuff going back to the original fast fleet sedan GTO and nothing that a fleet special sedan owner couldn't do in his own garage at much lower cost.
The result is something that still drives like an overweight machine as quickly as it might do so.


I'd love to see what pricing out the 6.4L, a full kit of Brembo brakes, axles, stand-alone adjustable suspension, upgraded suspension bits, upgraded diff, upgraded cooling and upgraded wheels and tires would cost to fit to a basic Charger and see how that compares to the price of an SRT.

That's the same line of loony that had folks thinking their '03 GT could be made to run with a Terminator for less than just buying the Terminator.

To make a factory-reliable go fast setup costs a lot of money. Generally, particularly in the last 20 years, it has been cheaper to just buy the faster car.

Yes, the Charger is heavy, and you feel that weight. But there's a very significant difference between how a base V6, an R/T and the SRT's drive. My M5 wasn't a light car either, but it was surprisingly nimble, despite sharing its underpinnings with its pedestrian "fleet sedan" E39 siblings smirk
Posted By: Lolvoguy

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 02:23 AM

Took my 30 year old BMW for a spin last weekend. Got my first speeding ticket in 8 years.
I was angered with myself about the ticket, yet felt thoroughly impressed with how well that little inline 6 was revving.

Despite having twice the hp and BETTER fuel economy than the BMW, the Lexus cannot hold a candle to the BMW in terms of overall driver enjoyment.

true story

[Linked Image]
Posted By: dishdude

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by fdcg27
All standard sedan into supercar stuff going back to the original fast fleet sedan GTO and nothing that a fleet special sedan owner couldn't do in his own garage at much lower cost.
Yeah, I'm sure anyone can just install adaptive damping suspension or pop in a V8 engine, an upgraded transmission, and all associated hardware and software in their own garage with one hand while sipping Old Milwaukee.

Quote
The result is something that still drives like an overweight machine as quickly as it might do so.
It is heavy, no doubt. But if you want a new 4-door family sedan that's still reasonably entertaining to drive without breaking a bank on initial purchase price and on on-going maintenance and repairs, what else is there?




Let's put this in perspective, an M5 weighs 4,370 lbs and a Charger SRT 392 4,410.
Posted By: MCompact

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by IndyIan
Originally Posted by MCompact
My two favorite cars are at opposite ends of the technology/speed spectrum; my 150 hp Club Sport is dead slow, running the quarter in @16 seconds. However, it is relatively light, very nimble, and it lets you know everything that is going on at the contact passage. I learned a lot about track driving in the Club Sport, as you have to conserve momentum everywhere; one mistake and you'll pay for it for another lap or two. You also have to keep the engine above 4000 rpm to make usable power.

In contrast, my 2 Series can run the quarter in an acceptably quick 13 seconds and the turbo inline six makes maximum torque from 1400-4500 rpm. It's just as much fun, but in a totally different way(for one thing, I no longer have to give 10 point-bys every lap like I had to in the Club Sport). Putting the car in Sport+ mode allows you quite a bit of latitude before the DSC kicks in, and you can disable it altogether if you choose. I especially like the ability to be able to transform the car from laid-back cruiser to track toy with the push of a button.

I've owned the Club Sport since new and intend to leave it to my son to enjoy. I probably won't keep the 2er that long, but right now the only new cars I'd consider to replace it are the M2/M2C and the Giulia Quadrifoglio.

So which do you enjoy more to drive briskly on the street?
This last weekend my SIL got married they had a fun autocross event at their wedding reception. Anyways there was a huge range of cars and driver experience, and it was interesting how a 1997 Miata only modded with suspension to handle Hoosier slicks, was the most exciting/terrifying vehicle out there to anyone who went on a ride along. There was a 550hp 2200lb M3 hill climb special and a 2016 Z06 on RE-71's which were faster of course, but were too hard to drive at 11/10 to make you cringe at 60-70-80 mph on slalom sections.
Also people were blown away how hard on a 1992 Civic could turn with good suspension and tires.


It's hard to say; the Club Sport is a scalpel, the 2er is a broadsword. You can beat on the Club Sport like a redheaded stepchild without attracting attention, but on the other hand it's a hoot to floor the 2er at 45 mph and feel the rear end twitch as the tires fight for traction. The Club Sport rewards a precise driving technique,the 2 Series just goes- and on the street both are equally fast from Point A to Point B. And both are excellent at one of my favorite pastimes- suckering nitwits into trying to keep up with me on a tight on-ramp. I've seen some hilarious things in my rear view mirror.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 03:38 AM

Well, I pretty much love our Lexus GS350 F Sport.
Runs like a top, fun as heck and comfortable.

Some of my other cars have included '66 GTO, '68 L36 Corvette Roadster, '65 4-4-2.
Posted By: rooflessVW

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Putting 500 bhp in a fleet sedan merely makes for a fast version of a fleet sedan. It does not make of it a really entertaining car.
FYI, in case of the Charger, it's not just an engine... suspension, brakes, exhaust, trans programming are all different, which does add to the entertainment factor.

All standard sedan into supercar stuff going back to the original fast fleet sedan GTO and nothing that a fleet special sedan owner couldn't do in his own garage at much lower cost.
The result is something that still drives like an overweight machine as quickly as it might do so.

Bull.

If you can buy a brand new Challenger SXT and make it perform and appear in all aspects as well and as reliably as a Hellcat for under $65k I'll give you my 911.

PS... It's $20k for the engine.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 07:02 PM

SUV’s (Soccermom Utility Vehicles) are popular because society has brainwashed all the cattle into liking them because that’s what you’re supposed to like,or else you’re a bad parent. Crossovers just look plain inbred.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 07:04 PM

Didn’t some of the sedans from the 60s have 300-400+ hp?
Posted By: Silverado12

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 07:13 PM

I have a 2018 Mustang GT and that thing is fast. In a way I have to agree. For pure driving enjoyment I can just as soon drive my Y2K GT. When merging onto I-95, all I have to do is gas on it and no issues getting up to speed. The power of the new one is just overkill.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Didn’t some of the sedans from the 60s have 300-400+ hp?


SAE GROSS, which is significantly less when converted to NET, often in the order of 30%.

Ford produced the 427 SOHC which was available "over the parts counter" and produced 657HP (GROSS) in dual-quad config. NET, with accessories, it probably produced around 450-500HP, making it comparable to the present day Chrysler 392.

The 427 SOHC was probably THE most powerful stock engine offered in that era, though I know Chrysler had a few wild HEMI's but IIRC, none of them were street mills.

If you look up some old 1/4 mile times, take a look at the trap speeds. That'll give you a better indication of what they were really producing for power. E/T isn't much help because the tires were junk and hooking up was next to impossible.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Didn’t some of the sedans from the 60s have 300-400+ hp?


SAE GROSS, which is significantly less when converted to NET, often in the order of 30%.

Ford produced the 427 SOHC which was available "over the parts counter" and produced 657HP (GROSS) in dual-quad config. NET, with accessories, it probably produced around 450-500HP, making it comparable to the present day Chrysler 392.

The 427 SOHC was probably THE most powerful stock engine offered in that era, though I know Chrysler had a few wild HEMI's but IIRC, none of them were street mills.

If you look up some old 1/4 mile times, take a look at the trap speeds. That'll give you a better indication of what they were really producing for power. E/T isn't much help because the tires were junk and hooking up was next to impossible.


That sounds like a beast of an engine! What cars did Ford use them in?
Posted By: MCompact

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm

That sounds like a beast of an engine! What cars did Ford use them in?


Ford never installed one in a street car(officially, anyway); the 427 SOHC was intended to be homologated for use in Grand National racing to compete with Chrysler's 426 Hemi. Chrysler protested and NASCAR banned the motor. It did however see a lot of use in drag racing.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/06/18 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Didn’t some of the sedans from the 60s have 300-400+ hp?


SAE GROSS, which is significantly less when converted to NET, often in the order of 30%.

Ford produced the 427 SOHC which was available "over the parts counter" and produced 657HP (GROSS) in dual-quad config. NET, with accessories, it probably produced around 450-500HP, making it comparable to the present day Chrysler 392.

The 427 SOHC was probably THE most powerful stock engine offered in that era, though I know Chrysler had a few wild HEMI's but IIRC, none of them were street mills.

If you look up some old 1/4 mile times, take a look at the trap speeds. That'll give you a better indication of what they were really producing for power. E/T isn't much help because the tires were junk and hooking up was next to impossible.


That sounds like a beast of an engine! What cars did Ford use them in?


As MCompact touched-on, it was never factory-installed. It was available over the parts counter and there were a few that were "dealer installed" into rigs. My grandfather had a Thunderbird with one in it and apparently it was an absolute rocket.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Hot take: Modern cars are BORING - 09/07/18 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Putting 500 bhp in a fleet sedan merely makes for a fast version of a fleet sedan. It does not make of it a really entertaining car.
FYI, in case of the Charger, it's not just an engine... suspension, brakes, exhaust, trans programming are all different, which does add to the entertainment factor.

All standard sedan into supercar stuff going back to the original fast fleet sedan GTO and nothing that a fleet special sedan owner couldn't do in his own garage at much lower cost.
The result is something that still drives like an overweight machine as quickly as it might do so.

Bull.

If you can buy a brand new Challenger SXT and make it perform and appear in all aspects as well and as reliably as a Hellcat for under $65k I'll give you my 911.

PS... It's $20k for the engine.


Oh please.
Some of you guys are so easily seduced by the test numbers from the buff books and actually believe what the advertisers feed their writers about all of the costly mods and development.
$20K engine?
LOL!
I'd be surprised if FCA had more than $5K in it.
A very fast car in a straight line no doubt. Nissan offers a similar beast although theirs is a little pricier.
Neither would be anyone's first choice on a rural two lane with corners to play around in.
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