Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: billt460
For example, my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee is equipped with the 5.7 HEMI V-8. It has both MDS, (Multi Displacement System), and VVT, (Variable Valve Timing). Both require 5W-20 oil that meets or exceeds Chrysler Spec MS-6395 in order to operate properly. If you substitute a heavier weight oil, these systems won't function correctly. And you will have serious warranty issues if something gets damaged, and they can trace the failure to the wrong oil.

Does the MDS system work at 8cst, 12cst, 40cst, or 60cst ???? What IS the specified viscosity at 120F that makes the magic elixer work, and only that one work?

........................................................................



MDS requires 8 cSt, or 12 cSt or....

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
You can't say that the improvements in life are CAUSED by lowering viscosity...any rudimentary understanding of hydrodynamics and physics clearly points that thinner is NOT causing the increases we see in reliable life.


Understood. And I'm not saying, or suggesting that. What I am saying is going to an increased viscosity oil in these newer engines would not improve a thing. It would just cause issues. VVT and MDS have proven to have issues with higher weight oils. They are designed to operate on a very specific weight of motor oil.



Originally Posted By: zeng
What's the typical operating temperature, and hence typical oil operating pressure of a VVT in action , that a one grade thicker engine oil would not 'function correctly' ?
.... if a VVT not 'function correctly' was established to be 'solely' caused by thicker oil (in oil operating pressure ) ?


VVT requires 8 cSt, or 12 cSt or....
Mechanisms ?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
It is absolutely apparent from the number of links I found, that the only reason the thin oils exist is for U.S. fuel economy standards.


You can post all the links you want. If that were in fact true, these same engines should, and would, run as good or better with thicker viscosity oils in them. They won't and they don't. Has it's been pointed out, other hydraulic systems like VVT and MDS require the thinner oils all the manufacturers mandate to be used, in order to operate properly. If all of this thin oil use revolved around mileage figures, and nothing else as you claim, people could simply change out their oil to a heavier viscosity. And in the process enjoy all of this supposed, "longer engine life" and, "better protection" these thicker oils supposedly provide. They can't because it will generate other operational problems.

Yes, mileage may be one of many factors in why thinner oils have been implemented. But it is in no way the ONLY reason. And there is absolutely no reason to believe these oils currently being used, do not protect as well as anything thicker in said engines. Modern high mileage engine life proves that.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Yes, mileage may be one of many factors in why thinner oils have been implemented. But it is in no way the ONLY reason.


Mileage/CO2 are the ONLY reasons that the OEMs state in their research papers for going to thinner oils.

If they tune their VVT/MDS systems to that oil does NOT mean that the systems inherently need that viscosity, nor that the viscosity wasn't chosen for economy as it's main driver...correlation/causation again.

Your MDS system functions "normally" on the specified oil from 50cst to 6cst...so as been asked before, what's the specified viscosity for MDS ?

Why would the MDS fail to work on 0W40 at 100C, when it's well within that range.

You cite multiple failures in operation...you state "will generate other operational problems"...yet have failed to link even one...show us a failure (yes damage even) caused by using anything other than 5W20 in a Valiant or 0W20 in a Prius...show us the operational problems that WILL (will means always, you know, and it's the word that you are using) occur.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: billt460
And there is absolutely no reason to believe these oils currently being used, do not protect as well as anything thicker in said engines. Modern high mileage engine life proves that.


There's simple laws of hydrodynamics/physics, and the papers published by the OEMS...when you get into the thinner films, you are reliant on surface active chemstry, and there IS more wear, controllable, but more...in full hydrodynamic, there is no contact whatsoever.

Again...it's simple, unless you don't want to believe in science (we've been there before in other threads).

NO, it won't lead to the (strawman) pile/spate of failed engines...what does the average schmuck know about whether his engine just made it to the boneyard, or would have made 100k miles beyond ?

Doesn't matter if he saved a few hundred bucks in fuel in the meantime, does it.

The OP asked "Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?"

The answer is mileage (or CO2 if that is the bent of your lords and masters elected representatives)

It wasn't done for your benefit, nor was it done to emascualate your manhood, which most of these defensive posts seem to be defending against.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Mileage/CO2 are the ONLY reasons that the OEMs state in their research papers for going to thinner oils.

If they tune their VVT/MDS systems to that oil does NOT mean that the systems inherently need that viscosity, nor that the viscosity wasn't chosen for economy as it's main driver...correlation/causation again.

Your MDS system functions "normally" on the specified oil from 50cst to 6cst...so as been asked before, what's the specified viscosity for MDS ?

Why would the MDS fail to work on 0W40 at 100C, when it's well within that range.

You cite multiple failures in operation...you state "will generate other operational problems"...yet have failed to link even one...show us a failure (yes damage even) caused by using anything other than 5W20 in a Valiant or 0W20 in a Prius...show us the operational problems that WILL (will means always, you know, and it's the word that you are using) occur.


There have been countless threads on Dodge and Jeep forums since MDS and VVT was introduced. Where people have gone to thicker oils, believing it will protect their engine better. And in the process had issues with MDS not working correctly. Look them up. Do you think these people are making this stuff up? Do you think they are lying? And after they find the system doesn't work correctly on thicker oil, and replace it with 5W-20, it goes back to normal operation. Exactly what other proof do you need? Why is, "not working correctly" not a good enough reason for you? You are so fixated on, "damage". Are you honestly trying to argue if it doesn't work correctly, that's OK. Just as long as it doesn't get damaged? That's lunacy. I won't even get into voiding the manufacturers warranty.

And again I'll ask you the $64,000 question everyone around here is avoiding like a turd in a punch bowl. What do you think running a higher viscosity oil is going to give you in these engines, that your not getting by following the manufacturers recommendations of using 5W-20 or 0W-20?

I'm no different than you, or any other new car owner. I would like to protect my engine as much as possible. So it lasts as long as possible. In my case I live in the hottest part of the United States. So if anyone could make an argument for higher viscosity oil, I could. What proof are you bringing to the table, that if I go drain my crankcase, and fill it with a heavier weight oil, that I will achieve all of this supposed better protection, and longer engine life? If you can't give a direct factual answer to that question, everything else is just a bunch of smoke filled, coffee house hot air and nonsense.

 

[Shannow]

Hey, I'm asking you to back YOUR claims...that's all.

the OP asked "Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?"

I answered...

If you have another answer...the BACK IT WITH FACTS...simple.

Read what you are demanding of me, read the OP's question, then re-read your posts...this is the "dance" that I referred to, you drag in stuff, strawman posters, then demand that they defend YOUR strawman.

It's Billt460 to a tee...

 

[billt460]

Let's try this again, seeing as you think this is some vast conspiracy involving the auto makers and the EPA, trying to give us poorly protected engines at the expense of a few MPG......

And once again I'll ask you the $64,000 question everyone around here is avoiding like a turd in a punch bowl. What do you think running a higher viscosity oil is going to give you in these engines, that your not getting by following the manufacturers recommendations of using 5W-20 or 0W-20?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Let's try this again, seeing as you think this is some vast conspiracy involving the auto makers and the EPA, trying to give us poorly protected engines at the expense of a few MPG......

And once again I'll ask you the $64,000 question everyone around here is avoiding like a turd in a punch bowl. What do you think running a higher viscosity oil is going to give you in these engines, that your not getting by following the manufacturers recommendations of using 5W-20 or 0W-20?


Saved before the edit...

I'll refer you to the OP's question...plus the questions that you've failed to answer...

Get to any of them, and I'll re-engage.

 

[billt460]

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1978

"Every police fleet manager with Dodge Chargers in their fleet knows the 5.7L HEMI® V-8 must use 5W-20 oil. Using a heavier viscosity oil will cause problems with the engine’s Multiple Displacement System, MDS (cylinder de-activation). For the MDS lifters to correctly activate and de-activate, the 5.7L engine simply must have 5W-20, the correct weight of oil. This will produce a Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) and illuminate the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) on the dash.

 

[Shannow]

LOL...

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: billt460
What proof are you bringing to the table, that if I go drain my crankcase, and fill it with a heavier weight oil, that I will achieve all of this supposed better protection, and longer engine life? If you can't give a direct factual answer to that question, everything else is just a bunch of smoke filled, coffee house hot air and nonsense.

Did Shannow said so (in bold above) in this thread ?
Or any other posters said so in this thread ??

Sigh ....... never ending strawman arguments from ..................

Reference from OP : Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? Period.

 

[billt460]

https://dodgeforum.com/forum/3rd-gen-ram-tech/237264-engine-noise-and-thicker-oil.html

"DO NOT RUN ANY OTHER OIL THAN 5W-20 IN AN MDS HEMI!!! For once, "the guy" at the oil change place is correct!
The tolerances are that tight. There is a service bulletin that states if you have an engine failure and ANY other weight other than 5w-20 is found in there, they will NOT cover it under warranty."

https://www.chargerforumz.com/threads/5w20-oil.65674/

"The MDS system needs the 5w20. Run any thicker and it can cause problems. It can even set a code P1521 incorrect oil type."

Now..... Are they all lying, or are they just not as smart as you? Is has to be one or the other. If you need more, let me know.

 

[Shannow]

Billt460, you are a shining example of why you don't argue with idiots on the internet.

Thankyou for your service.

edit "is has" FTW...

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
LOL...


Originally Posted By: Shannow
Billt460, you are a shining example of why you don't argue with idiots on the internet.


That's about what I figured I would get from you. Your typical B.S.... And I almost forgot your.... "It's ONLY about mileage", B.S. you've been saturating this thread with since page one. Still more of your B.S. But it's OK, we get it.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: billt460
Let's try this again, seeing as you think this is some vast conspiracy involving the auto makers and the EPA, trying to give us poorly protected engines at the expense of a few MPG......

And once again I'll ask you the $64,000 question everyone around here is avoiding like a turd in a punch bowl. What do you think running a higher viscosity oil is going to give you in these engines, that your not getting by following the manufacturers recommendations of using 5W-20 or 0W-20?


I'll refer you to the OP's question.....


The OP didn't ask the question... I did.

 

[bigj_16]

How about this:
5W-20 is not a viscosity, it is a grade of oil. There is pretty big viscosity range within the grade.
Let's just take the range off of Blackstone, for efficiency's sake:
cSt at 100 deg. C
The range is 6.0-9.7
for 5W-30 it is 8.8-11.1
The higher level of the range for the 20 is over 50% more than the lower level.
The lower level of the 30 is well within the 20 range.
This doesn't take into account possible thickening or shear/dilution.
Now, if you are using a much higher numerically grade of oil, I could see it possibly having enough viscosity to affect hydraulic actuation. It would have to be tested to find out for sure. But seeing as FCA doesn't "make" thier own oil and expects you to use an off the shelf oil, how do they know the viscosity of the 5W-20 you are using? How about when you are driving down the road waiting for your engine to warm up? The engine won't function normally until the oil is warm?
I know this is somewhat simplistic, but there is way too much variation in the viscosity to say "only a 5W-20" will make the engine work. I have NEVER read anything that would even indicate car manufacturers went to lower grades because of anything but government intervention. If you can find something other than that, post it.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
......I know this is somewhat simplistic, but there is way too much variation in the viscosity to say "only a 5W-20" will make the engine work.


So what's your point knowing the following?

1.) 5W-20 is what the manufacturer recommends.

2.) If you use anything thicker, people have experienced malfunctioning MDS systems.

3.) If you use anything other than 5W-20, your engine warranty automatically becomes null and void.

4.) There have been service bulletins that show how using the wrong oil, will in fact trigger an incorrect oil type code (P-1521). Which gives said dealer all the proof they require to void your engine warranty.

If that isn't enough proof the engine was designed around, and is required to us 5W-20 oil, I don't know what is. So based on that, why would anyone in their right mind use anything else? Mileage has nothing to do with the engine operating properly. Could Chrysler have designed their MDS system around another weight of oil? Most likely yes. But they didn't. So I'm not sure of what point you are trying to make with all of this? If all of this was built around mileage and nothing else as you claim, oil viscosity wouldn't matter in the engines performance or operation. But it isn't, and it does.

 

[dblshock]

I'd say a 5.7 Chrysler is a very poor engineering benchmark to argue this point on, try a 4.0L Toyota among others.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: billt460
Let's try this again, seeing as you think this is some vast conspiracy involving the auto makers and the EPA, trying to give us poorly protected engines at the expense of a few MPG......

And once again I'll ask you the $64,000 question everyone around here is avoiding like a turd in a punch bowl. What do you think running a higher viscosity oil is going to give you in these engines, that your not getting by following the manufacturers recommendations of using 5W-20 or 0W-20?


I'll refer you to the OP's question.....


The OP didn't ask the question... I did.


Since 20 wt oils perform very well, it will continue to be a mystery.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: billt460
But it's OK, we get it.

Was it a Royal 'We'?