Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?

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Originally Posted By: zeng
...Besides corrosion wear constitutes more significant proportion in engine wear, not so much in gear train wear though...


Care to explain the first sentence?
 
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
It is completely about the CAFE regs. Car companies in the US must specify the oil that was used to get their CAFE fuel economy ratings as the spec, and only oil. This is why the same cars in the rest of the world provide a long list of acceptable viscosity, but only the thinnest is spec'd for the US and Canada.
This ^ .
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Ducked
In the US?

Driven by fatter people. Diet Coke demographics.
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Taller and stronger, too...scary enough to keep Taiwan from being absorbed by the mainland.
;^)
 
I thought maybe it was about engine build close tolerences, but I must say I don`t really know. That was just my hunch.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: zeng
...Besides corrosion wear constitutes more significant proportion in engine wear, not so much in gear train wear though...


Care to explain the first sentence?


Bad English as it should read :
Besides , corrosion wear constitutes more significant proportion or majority of gross engine wear, vis-a-vis abrasion wear and adhesion wear .....,
it's proportion is not as much in gear train wear though...

The following links may be inferential but not conclusive though ..
http://papers.sae.org/600190/

http://papers.sae.org/850215/

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4048953/75__of_wear_occurs_at_startup.
 
I've owned close to forty cars. Only one had engine failure. Over heated. My assumption is that lighter oils are just fine and the rest of the car cr@pping out will more than likely be failure point, not the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Jimkobb
I thought maybe it was about engine build close tolerences, but I must say I don`t really know. That was just my hunch.
Did you mean to say "clearance"? A close tolerance could be 1.000" +/- 0.063

I don't think clearances are much different than when I was a kid. though some Japanese engine are running 0.03mm on the mains where sloppy low power V8s ran twice that in the early 70's. Piston to wall is driven more by material science and selection than machining tolerances.
 
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
It is completely about the CAFE regs. Car companies in the US must specify the oil that was used to get their CAFE fuel economy ratings as the spec, and only oil. This is why the same cars in the rest of the world provide a long list of acceptable viscosity, but only the thinnest is spec'd for the US and Canada.
This ^ .


While this might be true, it seems to always come across in a negative way. We have all discussed the minimal if any difference between using thin and thick oil. I have seen no conclusive proof or study that thin oil has any negative impact on the longevity of engines. If it improves mileage (im thinking barely if any) and reduces the impact on the environment without any conclusive evidence that it results in engine damage, why is this a problem to some? I use all types of oil and hold no bias to either thick or thin. I am not saying CAFE is all roses either but based on the data we all have seen and witnessed, its clear to me, that some folks love to make blanket statements based on no proof but rather old opinions. Resistance to change maybe. Change isn't always bad.
 
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
It is completely about the CAFE regs. Car companies in the US must specify the oil that was used to get their CAFE fuel economy ratings as the spec, and only oil. This is why the same cars in the rest of the world provide a long list of acceptable viscosity, but only the thinnest is spec'd for the US and Canada.


While this might be true, it seems to always come across in a negative way. We have all discussed the minimal if any difference between using thin and thick oil. I have seen no conclusive proof or study that thin oil has any negative impact on the longevity of engines. If it improves mileage (im thinking barely if any) and reduces the impact on the environment without any conclusive evidence that it results in engine damage, why is this a problem to some? I use all types of oil and hold no bias to either thick or thin. I am not saying CAFE is all roses either but based on the data we all have seen and witnessed, its clear to me, that some folks love to make blanket statements based on no proof but rather old opinions. Resistance to change maybe. Change isn't always bad.


Except car companies call for heavier weights of oils in colder climates than you typically find in North America. I think they know better than CAFE what is needed for long life. This is a complex subject for sure.

I know Acura really screwed up when they went to 5W20. Most of our cars are lucky to go 200k km without becoming severe oil burners.
 
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Review ANY paper investigating the use of thinner oils, and they ALWAYS state economy/CO2 emissions as the reason for pursuing thinner oils with "adequate" longevity (same horse, just looked at differently depending on the choice of the country).

It's a fair trade-off, it'n no point ditching a car with 150k miles left on the engine, if you can save a few gallons of fuel and ditch it with 75k miles left on the engine.

Just the thin proponents don't like the truth, and continue to come up with falsities (flow, startup wear, tighter clearances, the ubiquitous strawman "epidemic of failed engines", usually requested to point to the "pile" of failed engines) as chaff in the argument to try to prove that it's "better" for the engine, better for the owner...and it IS if you save a few gallons and the car makes it to scrap still running.
 
OTOH, if I can keep $300.00 in my pocket over the life of my newer Accord, then I'm ahead.
By that time, the rest of the car will be quite tatty and ready for seriously cheap beater status.
As long as everyone understands the tradeoffs and views them in proper context, there is no thick vs thin debate.
Would my K24 last longer on M1 0W-40?
Probably, but we're then getting into theoretical high mileages that very few cars will ever see.
Engines are made and intended to wear. That's a simple fact. When an engine will already outlast the car in which it's installed on a twenty, then what would be the point in running anything thicker just to use more fuel in the process?
Maybe some are concerned about bequeathing good old engines to the yards?
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
OTOH, if I can keep $300.00 in my pocket over the life of my newer Accord, then I'm ahead.
By that time, the rest of the car will be quite tatty and ready for seriously cheap beater status.
As long as everyone understands the tradeoffs and views them in proper context, there is no thick vs thin debate.


Exactly correct IMO, and that's been my POV all along.

It's just that some see the obvious tradeoffs when raised as an attack on their manhood/country.
 
Great post/thinking fdcg27.

I am all doing as one sees fit or best for themselves. Key part to me at is run what is in the manual for warranty purposes then change it after that if you like Someone likes 0w20... Roll on. Someone else likes Castrol or Mobil 1 0w40... Roll on. I like 5w30... It's a balance/ compromise.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I actually read where Volvo did a wear study to compare the effects of the new thin oils versus 5W-30. I can't remember the exact number, but wear increased around 5%.


5W30 IS a thin oil
 
In water-cooled applications, its pretty much right in the middle. 100C KV 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14

Now AAMA-JAMA oil is another story or shear terror!
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Review ANY paper investigating the use of thinner oils, and they ALWAYS state economy/CO2 emissions as the reason for pursuing thinner oils with "adequate" longevity (same horse, just looked at differently depending on the choice of the country).

It's a fair trade-off, it'n no point ditching a car with 150k miles left on the engine, if you can save a few gallons of fuel and ditch it with 75k miles left on the engine.

Just the thin proponents don't like the truth, and continue to come up with falsities (flow, startup wear, tighter clearances, the ubiquitous strawman "epidemic of failed engines", usually requested to point to the "pile" of failed engines) as chaff in the argument to try to prove that it's "better" for the engine, better for the owner...and it IS if you save a few gallons and the car makes it to scrap still running.


None of what you said is important. Poor maintenance practice's are the important factors in short engine life. I use 0-20 for the benefits I see. You may use a very thick oil for whatever reason that suites your engine in your climate. "Strawman" failed engines"? Engines fail using 20 wt oils. Engines fail using 30-50wt oils. So what's new. I replaced my first and only "failed" engine in 1970 in a 66 Chevy 6 banger using Valvoline 10-40. Reason: Previous owner didn't use proper care with the maintenance. Today's engines are better than ever. Oils are better than ever. However, engines still fail regardless of the "Ubiquitous Strawman (had to refer to Webster's for that one) debate over thick vs thin and thin vs thick.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
None of what you said is important.


Sorry tig1, I was responding to the OP's question..."Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?"

Which really makes your post irrelevant and off topic...including the comment about failed engines (your strawman)
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I actually read where Volvo did a wear study to compare the effects of the new thin oils versus 5W-30. I can't remember the exact number, but wear increased around 5%.


5W30 IS a thin oil


+1. Completely agree.

Full synthetic 10w-30 with a high HTHS (~3.5) is as thin as I want to go.
 
right when you get comfy with a 20 they'll push you right into a 16 or 8 ...like a sheep.
 
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