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Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? #4455860
07/11/17 02:16 AM
07/11/17 02:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
FordCapriDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
So yesterday i was going back and forth with a really reputable engine builder on Facebook, the guy is a very experienced engine builder who specialises in building very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engines, he's been building them since the 90s and he said to me that he noticed the engines that had been run on full synthetic oils had more cylinder wear, despite being cleaner and having less Turbo issues.
I was really surprised with what he said, what do you think?


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455862
07/11/17 02:49 AM
07/11/17 02:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,473
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,473
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
So yesterday i was going back and forth with a really reputable engine builder on Facebook, the guy is a very experienced engine builder who specialises in building very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engines, he's been building them since the 90s and he said to me that he noticed the engines that had been run on full synthetic oils had more cylinder wear, despite being cleaner and having less Turbo issues.
I was really surprised with what he said, what do you think?

In the context of oil film thickness, I agree with him. blush

Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455874
07/11/17 04:06 AM
07/11/17 04:06 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?

That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.

I suspect it's anecdotal.

Last edited by dnewton3; 07/11/17 04:07 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455901
07/11/17 05:04 AM
07/11/17 05:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,108
Upstate NY
Donald Offline
Donald  Offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,108
Upstate NY
There have been discussions in the past that synthetic oil does not allow the rings to properly wear-in so they provide proper sealing and proper compression.

But I believe this is mainly in rebuilt engines as those shops do not have the super expensive machines for engine manufacture that the auto makers do.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: dnewton3] #4455917
07/11/17 05:45 AM
07/11/17 05:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
FordCapriDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?

That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.

I suspect it's anecdotal.

Well what you know in the US as the Merkur Xr4ti, in the UK and Europe is called Sierra, some of these Sierras had 2.8 and 2.9 Ford Cologne V6 engines, and there is a company called Turbo Technics in the UK that has been Turbocharging these for over 30 years now, he specifically specialises in those Turbo Techincs Sierras, they range from 200-400 Hp for the 2.8 Mfi Cologne up to even 500+ Hp for the most wild 2.9 Efi versions, which is a lot for a pushrod Cologne V6 indeed.

He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.
I don't think he is lying, why would he? just that i find it interesting that he is finding more cylinder wear on engines run on full synthetic oils.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455961
07/11/17 06:58 AM
07/11/17 06:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,975
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,975
Illinois
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.

Last edited by tig1; 07/11/17 07:01 AM.

2007 Ford Fusion 235,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 60K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455963
07/11/17 07:00 AM
07/11/17 07:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 364
key largo,fl
henni Offline
henni  Offline
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 364
key largo,fl
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver

He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.


So what oil does he use or tell his customers to use in this specific application ?

Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455972
07/11/17 07:20 AM
07/11/17 07:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,220
Port Orange, Florida
Panzerman Offline
Panzerman  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,220
Port Orange, Florida
I wouldn't believe this statement true if it was Conventional oil v.s Synthetic of the same weight. Synthetic oils are usually run at a thinner weight thinking they can get away with it because well... They are synthetic and I think this is where the problems begin.

Last edited by Panzerman; 07/11/17 07:21 AM.


2006 Dodge Ram 2500 Hemi 4x4
2016 Dodge Challenger Scat Pack
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: henni] #4455989
07/11/17 07:39 AM
07/11/17 07:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
FordCapriDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: henni
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver

He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.


So what oil does he use or tell his customers to use in this specific application ?

Cheap 20w50 dino i think, he just mentioned Halfords which is a general parts store in the UK and they make a 20w50 Dino oil, it's API SE/CC and on paper looks pretty bottom of the barrel stuff...
Personally would never run a API SE/CC Dino oil in a Turbo engine with high boost, but apparently he does!


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455990
07/11/17 07:40 AM
07/11/17 07:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,772
MD
AirgunSavant Offline
AirgunSavant  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,772
MD
Is it possible that the full synthetic oil users also use top tier filters with glass enhanced media?

Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455991
07/11/17 07:47 AM
07/11/17 07:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Wash, DC
circuitsmith Offline
circuitsmith  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Wash, DC
It's possible this engine builder saw increased cylinder wear from one particular brand and weight of synthetic oil.
After all, he's working in "a niche within a niche within a niche".


2017 Hyundai Tucson SE FWD, 5000mi/12mo OCI
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455995
07/11/17 07:52 AM
07/11/17 07:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,284
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,284
Upper Midwest
Yet another exclusive revelation from an oil industry outsider, this time "a really reputable engine builder on Facebook."

I've used synthetic oil exclusively in every vehicle I've operated since about 1980, most of them to very high miles. I've even broken in an engine on synthetic after a rebuild (1981 Mazda 626).

Somehow I just have a hard time getting worried that I've caused more wear.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4455996
07/11/17 07:55 AM
07/11/17 07:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
FordCapriDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
Maybe it is that he has seen more cylinder wear ona particular synthetic oil, the conversation started with a post from a guy who has one of these Turbo'd Cologne V6s, and he made a post saying that his turbo shaft had play and he was looking to have it re-built, i recomended that he should use Mobil 1 or Valvoline VR1 5W-50 Full synthetic, not a bad choice i think ( stock the 2.8i 160 Hp Cologne V6 specs 20W-40 or 20W-50 according to my haynes manual )
And then this guy, the builder stepped in and said " a properly built engine doesn't need a fancy oil"

Most people i've found run 10W-40 Synthetic blends in these ( typically API SL/SM and A3/B4 or A3/B3 in Europe ).


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: kschachn] #4455998
07/11/17 07:59 AM
07/11/17 07:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
FordCapriDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,798
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Yet another exclusive revelation from an oil industry outsider, this time "a really reputable engine builder on Facebook."

I've used synthetic oil exclusively in every vehicle I've operated since about 1980, most of them to very high miles. I've even broken in an engine on synthetic after a rebuild (1981 Mazda 626).

Somehow I just have a hard time getting worried that I've caused more wear.

I told him that i would have a really hard time believing that a synthetic oil would cause more cylinder wear than a dino oil, but he just said "It's what i've seen from my 25 years of experience"
And provided no actual evidence..


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4456002
07/11/17 08:06 AM
07/11/17 08:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,504
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,504
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver

I told him that i would have a really hard time believing that a synthetic oil would cause more cylinder wear than a dino oil, but he just said "It's what i've seen from my 25 years of experience"
And provided no actual evidence..


So he's "seen" it but has presented no proof?

Sounds like some Synthetic Oil distributor would not bow to his blackmail for a huge discount.


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
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