Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear?
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I beg to differ.
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I told him that i would have a really hard time believing that a synthetic oil would cause more cylinder wear than a dino oil, but he just said "It's what i've seen from my 25 years of experience"
And provided no actual evidence..
And there you go...
Since no evidence is provided you are under no obligation to provide any evidence against.
I told him that i would have a really hard time believing that a synthetic oil would cause more cylinder wear than a dino oil, but he just said "It's what i've seen from my 25 years of experience"
And provided no actual evidence..
And there you go...
Since no evidence is provided you are under no obligation to provide any evidence against.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
That is the case for the engine but these racing teams depend upon marketing money spent sponsoring them.
And I'd argue 100K is a low milage vehicle these days. I'm hoping to hit 300K-500K on my engine. I'm not looking to NASCAR to find how.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
That is the case for the engine but these racing teams depend upon marketing money spent sponsoring them.
And I'd argue 100K is a low milage vehicle these days. I'm hoping to hit 300K-500K on my engine. I'm not looking to NASCAR to find how.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
Read what the OP said. He was referring to an engine builder that specializes in high HP engines.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
Read what the OP said. He was referring to an engine builder that specializes in high HP engines.
Originally Posted By: KevinP
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
That is the case for the engine but these racing teams depend upon marketing money spent sponsoring them.
And I'd argue 100K is a low milage vehicle these days. I'm hoping to hit 300K-500K on my engine. I'm not looking to NASCAR to find how.
Me either. 39 years ago I found the oil that keeps my engines lasting for hundreds of Ks.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: tig1
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
Aren't these racing engines typically torn down after each race such that lasting the race is more important than lasting 100K miles?
That is the case for the engine but these racing teams depend upon marketing money spent sponsoring them.
And I'd argue 100K is a low milage vehicle these days. I'm hoping to hit 300K-500K on my engine. I'm not looking to NASCAR to find how.
Me either. 39 years ago I found the oil that keeps my engines lasting for hundreds of Ks.
This is covered in the "Best SEA 30" thread running in PCMO. It's likely related to "drain off" for engines that sit for extended periods. The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days. Dino's are better at capillary fill due to their inherent higher surface tension. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines.
Good old quality SAE 30 HD has been shown in some tests to do better at upper cylinder wall protection for cold starts. I would not rule that out for a built engine which will usually see worse fuel dilution due to cam'ing and trying to manage that with cold combustion chambers.
My personal belief is that highly refined dino oils are maybe the best compromise ... I'm betting that way by using Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD as my "break-in" oil for any new motors I build. Since I only build flat tappet motors, it helps a lot there too
The race motor discussion does not really apply. Many of these get pre-heated oil and some have priming pumps. Neither of which apply to DD motors. The high performance street cars mentioned may be trading slight cylinder wear for high heat tolerance ...
Good old quality SAE 30 HD has been shown in some tests to do better at upper cylinder wall protection for cold starts. I would not rule that out for a built engine which will usually see worse fuel dilution due to cam'ing and trying to manage that with cold combustion chambers.
My personal belief is that highly refined dino oils are maybe the best compromise ... I'm betting that way by using Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD as my "break-in" oil for any new motors I build. Since I only build flat tappet motors, it helps a lot there too
The race motor discussion does not really apply. Many of these get pre-heated oil and some have priming pumps. Neither of which apply to DD motors. The high performance street cars mentioned may be trading slight cylinder wear for high heat tolerance ...
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
This is covered in the "Best SEA 30" thread running in PCMO. It's likely related to "drain off" for engines that sit for extended periods. The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days. Dino's are better at capillary fill due to their inherent higher surface tension. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines.
Good old quality SAE 30 HD has been shown in some tests to do better at upper cylinder wall protection for cold starts. I would not rule that out for a built engine which will usually see worse fuel dilution due to cam'ing and trying to manage that with cold combustion chambers.
My personal belief is that highly refined dino oils are maybe the best compromise ... I'm betting that way by using Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD as my "break-in" oil for any new motors I build. Since I only build flat tappet motors, it helps a lot there too
The race motor discussion does not really apply. Many of these get pre-heated oil and some have priming pumps. Neither of which apply to DD motors. The high performance street cars mentioned may be trading slight cylinder wear for high heat tolerance ...
Interesting... the lower surface tension would also contribute to specially older engines having more valvetrain noise on synthetic oils right?
This is covered in the "Best SEA 30" thread running in PCMO. It's likely related to "drain off" for engines that sit for extended periods. The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days. Dino's are better at capillary fill due to their inherent higher surface tension. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines.
Good old quality SAE 30 HD has been shown in some tests to do better at upper cylinder wall protection for cold starts. I would not rule that out for a built engine which will usually see worse fuel dilution due to cam'ing and trying to manage that with cold combustion chambers.
My personal belief is that highly refined dino oils are maybe the best compromise ... I'm betting that way by using Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD as my "break-in" oil for any new motors I build. Since I only build flat tappet motors, it helps a lot there too
The race motor discussion does not really apply. Many of these get pre-heated oil and some have priming pumps. Neither of which apply to DD motors. The high performance street cars mentioned may be trading slight cylinder wear for high heat tolerance ...
Interesting... the lower surface tension would also contribute to specially older engines having more valvetrain noise on synthetic oils right?
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?
That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.
I suspect it's anecdotal.
Well what you know in the US as the Merkur Xr4ti, in the UK and Europe is called Sierra, some of these Sierras had 2.8 and 2.9 Ford Cologne V6 engines, and there is a company called Turbo Technics in the UK that has been Turbocharging these for over 30 years now, he specifically specialises in those Turbo Techincs Sierras, they range from 200-400 Hp for the 2.8 Mfi Cologne up to even 500+ Hp for the most wild 2.9 Efi versions, which is a lot for a pushrod Cologne V6 indeed.
He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.
I don't think he is lying, why would he? just that i find it interesting that he is finding more cylinder wear on engines run on full synthetic oils.
I don't know your builder so can't comment on his experience, but Ric Woods is one of the most renowned engine builders in the UK and his workshop is only 5 minutes walk from my house. He specialises is fast fords - usually Capris but other stuff too. When I used his rolling road facility I asked him his opinion on oils and he said he uses synthetic in everything he builds.
www.ricwood.com
www.cncheads.co.uk
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?
That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.
I suspect it's anecdotal.
Well what you know in the US as the Merkur Xr4ti, in the UK and Europe is called Sierra, some of these Sierras had 2.8 and 2.9 Ford Cologne V6 engines, and there is a company called Turbo Technics in the UK that has been Turbocharging these for over 30 years now, he specifically specialises in those Turbo Techincs Sierras, they range from 200-400 Hp for the 2.8 Mfi Cologne up to even 500+ Hp for the most wild 2.9 Efi versions, which is a lot for a pushrod Cologne V6 indeed.
He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.
I don't think he is lying, why would he? just that i find it interesting that he is finding more cylinder wear on engines run on full synthetic oils.
I don't know your builder so can't comment on his experience, but Ric Woods is one of the most renowned engine builders in the UK and his workshop is only 5 minutes walk from my house. He specialises is fast fords - usually Capris but other stuff too. When I used his rolling road facility I asked him his opinion on oils and he said he uses synthetic in everything he builds.
www.ricwood.com
www.cncheads.co.uk
We all have a tough of compulsive oil disorder.....lol
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?
That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.
I suspect it's anecdotal.
Well what you know in the US as the Merkur Xr4ti, in the UK and Europe is called Sierra, some of these Sierras had 2.8 and 2.9 Ford Cologne V6 engines, and there is a company called Turbo Technics in the UK that has been Turbocharging these for over 30 years now, he specifically specialises in those Turbo Techincs Sierras, they range from 200-400 Hp for the 2.8 Mfi Cologne up to even 500+ Hp for the most wild 2.9 Efi versions, which is a lot for a pushrod Cologne V6 indeed.
He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.
I don't think he is lying, why would he? just that i find it interesting that he is finding more cylinder wear on engines run on full synthetic oils.
I don't know your builder so can't comment on his experience, but Ric Woods is one of the most renowned engine builders in the UK and his workshop is only 5 minutes walk from my house. He specialises is fast fords - usually Capris but other stuff too. When I used his rolling road facility I asked him his opinion on oils and he said he uses synthetic in everything he builds.
www.ricwood.com
www.cncheads.co.uk
Ric Wood is really well known in the Capri community, he's built some awesome Cologne and Essex V6s, i think he recomends Joe Gibbs Driven racing oil in his builds.
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?
That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.
I suspect it's anecdotal.
Well what you know in the US as the Merkur Xr4ti, in the UK and Europe is called Sierra, some of these Sierras had 2.8 and 2.9 Ford Cologne V6 engines, and there is a company called Turbo Technics in the UK that has been Turbocharging these for over 30 years now, he specifically specialises in those Turbo Techincs Sierras, they range from 200-400 Hp for the 2.8 Mfi Cologne up to even 500+ Hp for the most wild 2.9 Efi versions, which is a lot for a pushrod Cologne V6 indeed.
He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.
I don't think he is lying, why would he? just that i find it interesting that he is finding more cylinder wear on engines run on full synthetic oils.
I don't know your builder so can't comment on his experience, but Ric Woods is one of the most renowned engine builders in the UK and his workshop is only 5 minutes walk from my house. He specialises is fast fords - usually Capris but other stuff too. When I used his rolling road facility I asked him his opinion on oils and he said he uses synthetic in everything he builds.
www.ricwood.com
www.cncheads.co.uk
Ric Wood is really well known in the Capri community, he's built some awesome Cologne and Essex V6s, i think he recomends Joe Gibbs Driven racing oil in his builds.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
This is covered in the "Best SEA 30" thread running in PCMO. It's likely related to "drain off" for engines that sit for extended periods. The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days. Dino's are better at capillary fill due to their inherent higher surface tension. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines.
Good old quality SAE 30 HD has been shown in some tests to do better at upper cylinder wall protection for cold starts. I would not rule that out for a built engine which will usually see worse fuel dilution due to cam'ing and trying to manage that with cold combustion chambers.
My personal belief is that highly refined dino oils are maybe the best compromise ... I'm betting that way by using Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD as my "break-in" oil for any new motors I build. Since I only build flat tappet motors, it helps a lot there too
The race motor discussion does not really apply. Many of these get pre-heated oil and some have priming pumps. Neither of which apply to DD motors. The high performance street cars mentioned may be trading slight cylinder wear for high heat tolerance ...
I agree.
From what I've read synthetic oils have a greater affinity (adhesion) to metals whereas minerals oils have a greater affinity to each other (cohesion). I would think the latter is more important in creating oil film thickness. That might explain why Group II oils have better EHD characteristics than their synthetic counterparts.
This is covered in the "Best SEA 30" thread running in PCMO. It's likely related to "drain off" for engines that sit for extended periods. The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days. Dino's are better at capillary fill due to their inherent higher surface tension. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines.
Good old quality SAE 30 HD has been shown in some tests to do better at upper cylinder wall protection for cold starts. I would not rule that out for a built engine which will usually see worse fuel dilution due to cam'ing and trying to manage that with cold combustion chambers.
My personal belief is that highly refined dino oils are maybe the best compromise ... I'm betting that way by using Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD as my "break-in" oil for any new motors I build. Since I only build flat tappet motors, it helps a lot there too
The race motor discussion does not really apply. Many of these get pre-heated oil and some have priming pumps. Neither of which apply to DD motors. The high performance street cars mentioned may be trading slight cylinder wear for high heat tolerance ...
I agree.
From what I've read synthetic oils have a greater affinity (adhesion) to metals whereas minerals oils have a greater affinity to each other (cohesion). I would think the latter is more important in creating oil film thickness. That might explain why Group II oils have better EHD characteristics than their synthetic counterparts.
That's the biggest load of [censored], coming from a builder. I have seen a number of engines apart and taken a few apart myself. The ones I have seen with my ones eyes have LESS wear running on synthetic vs conventional. That is why I run it in everything I own bumper to bumper..lol the most wear I personally witnessed was a Ford 300 I6 run on 10w40 Pennzoil Yellow Bottle. The truck was not sludged, but had a serious ridge in the bores on 4 cylinders and many bearings down to the copper. I tore it down at 277k miles because of a noisy wrist pin. It got a complete rebuild.
It was a 1995 F150 original owner, and he was a 72 year old man.
It was a 1995 F150 original owner, and he was a 72 year old man.
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Originally Posted By: Syntheticuser
That's the biggest load of [censored], coming from a builder. I have seen a number of engines apart and taken a few apart myself. The ones I have seen with my ones eyes have LESS wear running on synthetic vs conventional. That is why I run it in everything I own bumper to bumper..lol the most wear I personally witnessed was a Ford 300 I6 run on 10w40 Pennzoil Yellow Bottle. The truck was not sludged, but had a serious ridge in the bores on 4 cylinders and many bearings down to the copper. I tore it down at 277k miles because of a noisy wrist pin. It got a complete rebuild.
It was a 1995 F150 original owner, and he was a 72 year old man.
Why so much wear? Wrong grade? Not changed frequently enough?
That's the biggest load of [censored], coming from a builder. I have seen a number of engines apart and taken a few apart myself. The ones I have seen with my ones eyes have LESS wear running on synthetic vs conventional. That is why I run it in everything I own bumper to bumper..lol the most wear I personally witnessed was a Ford 300 I6 run on 10w40 Pennzoil Yellow Bottle. The truck was not sludged, but had a serious ridge in the bores on 4 cylinders and many bearings down to the copper. I tore it down at 277k miles because of a noisy wrist pin. It got a complete rebuild.
It was a 1995 F150 original owner, and he was a 72 year old man.
Why so much wear? Wrong grade? Not changed frequently enough?
Honestly I don't know. 10w40 in Texas, while not ideal I'm sure, should have been ok. I'm guessing it had to do with air filtration. He would use compressed air to blow out the filter. Never could talk him out of doing it. I'd say the compressed air punched holes in the filter letting dirt in for years.
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: Syntheticuser
That's the biggest load of [censored], coming from a builder. I have seen a number of engines apart and taken a few apart myself. The ones I have seen with my ones eyes have LESS wear running on synthetic vs conventional. That is why I run it in everything I own bumper to bumper..lol the most wear I personally witnessed was a Ford 300 I6 run on 10w40 Pennzoil Yellow Bottle. The truck was not sludged, but had a serious ridge in the bores on 4 cylinders and many bearings down to the copper. I tore it down at 277k miles because of a noisy wrist pin. It got a complete rebuild.
It was a 1995 F150 original owner, and he was a 72 year old man.
Why so much wear? Wrong grade? Not changed frequently enough?
No, none of the above.
According to Malaysian English as I understand it, the high wear is attributed to mineral oil.
Originally Posted By: Syntheticuser
That's the biggest load of [censored], coming from a builder. I have seen a number of engines apart and taken a few apart myself. The ones I have seen with my ones eyes have LESS wear running on synthetic vs conventional. That is why I run it in everything I own bumper to bumper..lol the most wear I personally witnessed was a Ford 300 I6 run on 10w40 Pennzoil Yellow Bottle. The truck was not sludged, but had a serious ridge in the bores on 4 cylinders and many bearings down to the copper. I tore it down at 277k miles because of a noisy wrist pin. It got a complete rebuild.
It was a 1995 F150 original owner, and he was a 72 year old man.
Why so much wear? Wrong grade? Not changed frequently enough?
No, none of the above.
According to Malaysian English as I understand it, the high wear is attributed to mineral oil.
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Posts like this are one reason why I dont even bother posting,because it's so rediculous someone would even say somethin so ignorant.
I've built engines for both street and racing and they've used synthetics with no issues.
I've built engines for both street and racing and they've used synthetics with no issues.
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