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0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet #4431237
06/14/17 12:19 PM
06/14/17 12:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
shurguywutt Offline OP
shurguywutt  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
Hey guys, I am trying to come up with a 0w-20 datasheet to compare basic specs for a few different manufacturers.

Been working on this for a little while scouring the internet and OEM websites but I cannot find some info, ie: TBNs, NOACKS, HTHS.

Maybe you can help me out if you know any of this data.



2008 Pilot 2WD J35Z1 148k
Maxlife Blend 10w-30
FRAM Ultra Synthetic
Fumoto F106SX
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4431258
06/14/17 12:35 PM
06/14/17 12:35 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,286
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Online content
Char Baby  Online Content
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,286
ROCHESTER, NY
This is a comparison of 5W20 oils(dino & synth) from the PQIA site.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Feb2014/consolidated5w20ALL.html

I am only linking this site to get you started as it is a good place to search. However, once you find everything you're looking for, you may want to ditch your own datasheet and just reference the PQIA site for all of your information.


"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic LX
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4431301
06/14/17 01:22 PM
06/14/17 01:22 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,195
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,195
N.H, U.S.A.
Don't forget to add VSP on there. Not the most impressive spec but, the best Ive used in our Subaru. Even against M1 EP purportedly real synthetic.


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4431310
06/14/17 01:27 PM
06/14/17 01:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,760
Upstate NY
Donald Offline
Donald  Offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,760
Upstate NY
Add NAPA 0W20. At $2.99 on sale it's my new favorite.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4432101
06/15/17 08:39 AM
06/15/17 08:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
shurguywutt Offline OP
shurguywutt  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
My table is coming together nice but I still need some more data. Royal Purple has really been a let down. First, I think the 177 VI for RP is bogus because the V for 40*C and 100*C is on the lower end. Second, they don't even have a basic spec for pour point which all other manufactures include.

Check it out. Seems the leaders are Redline, Amsoil, and M1 EP. Seems M1 is the best for the money.



Last edited by shurguywutt; 06/15/17 08:41 AM.

2008 Pilot 2WD J35Z1 148k
Maxlife Blend 10w-30
FRAM Ultra Synthetic
Fumoto F106SX
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4432136
06/15/17 09:17 AM
06/15/17 09:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 671
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 671
NJ, USA
- How could the VI be bogus? It is what it is based on the two viscosities.

- How are you judging viscosity at 40C? I would think a lower viscosity at 40C (ie. closer to the operating viscosity) would be preferable, but you have graded it oppositely. What is the benefit of a higher viscosity at low temperature?

- Pour point is not a standard for engine oils. So it provides little to no usable information. Low temperature cranking viscosity (CCS) and low temperature pumping viscosity (MRV) are important and provide relevant viscosity data with regard to engine performance. Though they don't appear to provide those either.

Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4432183
06/15/17 10:18 AM
06/15/17 10:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
shurguywutt Offline OP
shurguywutt  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
You are right, 177 is not bogus, I mistakenly thought the greater the difference between 100* and 40* C, the oil would have a greater VI, this is the opposite.

While we are talking about a very small margin here and a very light grade of oil, I was under the impression that a greater viscosity at 40*C (104*F close to my starting temp in the FL summer) would provide more protection. Looking at the HTHS numbers would confirm this. I understand oil loses viscosity over time as well.

Pour point is a property of the oil. I would use it to compare how an oil flows in cold temperatures. The lower the pour point the easier an oil will flow in cold temperatures.

Last edited by shurguywutt; 06/15/17 10:28 AM.

2008 Pilot 2WD J35Z1 148k
Maxlife Blend 10w-30
FRAM Ultra Synthetic
Fumoto F106SX
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4432836
06/15/17 10:37 PM
06/15/17 10:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,425
Western S.C. since 1996
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,425
Western S.C. since 1996
Originally Posted By: shurguywutt
... While we are talking about a very small margin here and a very light grade of oil, I was under the impression that a greater viscosity at 40*C (104*F close to my starting temp in the FL summer) would provide more protection. Looking at the HTHS numbers would confirm this. ...
Uh ... not exactly! Better recheck your logic! If "greater viscosity at 40°C ... would provide more protection," then lower viscosity would provide less. Viscosity of any of the oils at 100°C is far lower than any at 40°. Yet, somehow, engines survive at that higher temperature. How do you figure that's possible?


2011 Toyota Prius now at 92K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4433457
06/16/17 03:05 PM
06/16/17 03:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
shurguywutt Offline OP
shurguywutt  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
It is possible for an engine to survive at a higher temperature because that is what they are designed to do. That is why engines have a cooling system and an oil system.

I am comparing data sets here. Obviously the viscosity of any oil at 100°C is far lower than any at 40°, that is physics. I was only making a comparison of the viscosity of the oils at 40*.

Everything that I have read has the HTHS number going up as viscosity increases. So logic says a more viscous oil would protect against higher temps and stress. But I could be wrong.

Last edited by shurguywutt; 06/16/17 03:06 PM.

2008 Pilot 2WD J35Z1 148k
Maxlife Blend 10w-30
FRAM Ultra Synthetic
Fumoto F106SX
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4433549
06/16/17 05:17 PM
06/16/17 05:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,425
Western S.C. since 1996
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,425
Western S.C. since 1996
Originally Posted By: shurguywutt
... Everything that I have read has the HTHS number going up as viscosity increases. So logic says a more viscous oil would protect against higher temps and stress. But I could be wrong.
The HTHS "number" IS viscosity at a specified high temperature (and shear rate), so yes, higher viscosity in those conditions protects better against high loading. That doesn't explain why you feel there's any advantage in maximizing viscosity when the oil is only lukewarm. It's certain to be much higher then than the engine needs; otherwise the engine couldn't survive at normal operating temperature.


2011 Toyota Prius now at 92K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: CR94] #4434256
06/17/17 12:59 PM
06/17/17 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
shurguywutt Offline OP
shurguywutt  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 110
FL, USA
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: shurguywutt
... Everything that I have read has the HTHS number going up as viscosity increases. So logic says a more viscous oil would protect against higher temps and stress. But I could be wrong.
The HTHS "number" IS viscosity at a specified high temperature (and shear rate), so yes, higher viscosity in those conditions protects better against high loading. That doesn't explain why you feel there's any advantage in maximizing viscosity when the oil is only lukewarm. It's certain to be much higher then than the engine needs; otherwise the engine couldn't survive at normal operating temperature.


Wouldn't higher viscosity always protect better as long as the flow is sufficient to be pumped to all parts of the engine in this case? (which is should because all are 0w-20 grade).

A higher HTHS viscosity would protect better in an extreme engine condition. Logic would tell that a "slightly higher" viscosity at 104* would protect better than a lower viscosity at the same temp.


2008 Pilot 2WD J35Z1 148k
Maxlife Blend 10w-30
FRAM Ultra Synthetic
Fumoto F106SX
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4434849
06/18/17 05:49 AM
06/18/17 05:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Jetronic Offline
Jetronic  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Even the lowest of the viscosities at 104°F is still 5 times higher than the viscosities at operating temp and it doesn't say anything about shear thinning like HTHS does. Kinematic viscosity doesn't protect against anything.

Flow isn't an issue at 104°F, but it becomes an issue when you get to temps below the winter rating (-40°F for a 0w)


AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- Total Quartz 9000 Energy 0w30
Hankook Ventus Prime 2 215/50R17 (front)
Pirelli P7 Cinturato 225/45R17 (rear)
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4435712
06/19/17 08:49 AM
06/19/17 08:49 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,195
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,195
N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: shurguywutt
You are right, 177 is not bogus, I mistakenly thought the greater the difference between 100* and 40* C, the oil would have a greater VI, this is the opposite.



NO, you were correct the greater the difference (KV40 minus KV100) will result in a higher VI (=Better).

For economy during warmup you want the KV40 to be as close to operating viscosity as good oil chemistry allows at a given price point.

High-ish startup viscosity (well above operating viscosity) will provide no engine wear improvement durig warmup.

Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 06/19/17 08:52 AM.

2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: ARCOgraphite] #4435823
06/19/17 10:35 AM
06/19/17 10:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 671
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 671
NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: shurguywutt
You are right, 177 is not bogus, I mistakenly thought the greater the difference between 100* and 40* C, the oil would have a greater VI, this is the opposite.



NO, you were correct the greater the difference (KV40 minus KV100) will result in a higher VI (=Better).


confused

That's not right.

The more stable (less change) the viscosity is over a temperature range, the higher the viscosity index will be. The only exception to that I've ever seen is at very low viscosity (4 cSt and below at 100C) where the VI calculation starts to get a little loose with the numbers.

Re: 0w-20 Synthetic Comparison Datasheet [Re: shurguywutt] #4436786
06/20/17 01:40 PM
06/20/17 01:40 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,195
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,195
N.H, U.S.A.
That's right, you are Correcto Mundo, MotoT

Brain on drugs Yesterday. I heard it the wrong way and answered the wrong way.

Wonder if and oil would hrut a cold started motor if the MRV viscosity was 100cP at -40 and the vi was unimaginably high.

Lets say Kv40 = 10cSt, KV100= 9.7cSt

would the engine be insanely noisy during warmup?

The oil Hot oil in a Ice cold motor postulation ....


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
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