^^^I do the same. No need for me to change now. I get good mileage using it and my 2010 Challenger requires it.
Highest Ambient temp for 0w-20 grade
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Originally Posted By: Pops1050
Poster, the cooling system in my wife's Accord runs at a balmy 210 degrees F. I don't think it cares what the ambient temp surrounding it is. No UOA's sorry. It gets PU 5w-20 and is changed according to the OLM.
My focus stays at about 180 in the summer - even with the A/C on in gridlock.
Poster, the cooling system in my wife's Accord runs at a balmy 210 degrees F. I don't think it cares what the ambient temp surrounding it is. No UOA's sorry. It gets PU 5w-20 and is changed according to the OLM.
My focus stays at about 180 in the summer - even with the A/C on in gridlock.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Stop thinking that hot outside = hot oil. It's more complicated than that.
This is absolutely correct, and crucial.
Stop thinking that hot outside = hot oil. It's more complicated than that.
This is absolutely correct, and crucial.
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Hold your horses bud
Ambient temps most certainly have an effect on oil temps. You have an oil/water oil cooler, which heats your oil. I have the same, but since it sits in a giant heatsink, I see more significant differences in oil temperatures between summer and winter.
Engines without oil coolers will see far more drastic changes in oil temperature with ambient.
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Hold your horses bud
Engines without oil coolers will see far more drastic changes in oil temperature with ambient.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Hold your horses bud
Ambient temps most certainly have an effect on oil temps. You have an oil/water oil cooler, which heats your oil. I have the same, but since it sits in a giant heatsink, I see more significant differences in oil temperatures between summer and winter.
Engines without oil coolers will see far more drastic changes in oil temperature with ambient.
My charger doesn't have an oil cooler as far as I know. SteveSRT would know for sure though. I'm pretty sure it doesn't though.
My mustangs and Harley have oil coolers though.
My charger is pretty consistent when it comes to oil temps. When it's -40 my oil temps stabilize at around 195f-200f and in the summer it stabilizes at 213f. If I'm beating on it the oil temps increase and I've seen 255f oil temps but once I quit bouncing off the rev limiter the oil temps drop pretty quick
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Hold your horses bud
Engines without oil coolers will see far more drastic changes in oil temperature with ambient.
My charger doesn't have an oil cooler as far as I know. SteveSRT would know for sure though. I'm pretty sure it doesn't though.
My mustangs and Harley have oil coolers though.
My charger is pretty consistent when it comes to oil temps. When it's -40 my oil temps stabilize at around 195f-200f and in the summer it stabilizes at 213f. If I'm beating on it the oil temps increase and I've seen 255f oil temps but once I quit bouncing off the rev limiter the oil temps drop pretty quick
When driven easy, the oil temp will stabilize at the engine coolant temp or close to it.
When you get the rpms up it puts extra heat in the oil. I used to run almost 300 deg oil temps in my olds 455 jet with the engine dead cold to the touch(cooling water dialed way up). But that was at a steady 6000 rpm.
I had to put a water/oil cooler on to keep the temps below 240.
When you get the rpms up it puts extra heat in the oil. I used to run almost 300 deg oil temps in my olds 455 jet with the engine dead cold to the touch(cooling water dialed way up). But that was at a steady 6000 rpm.
I had to put a water/oil cooler on to keep the temps below 240.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Hold your horses bud
Ambient temps most certainly have an effect on oil temps. You have an oil/water oil cooler, which heats your oil. I have the same, but since it sits in a giant heatsink, I see more significant differences in oil temperatures between summer and winter.
Engines without oil coolers will see far more drastic changes in oil temperature with ambient.
I agreed.
Most manufactures drop the oil grades with temperature chart, but some still have it in the owner manual.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Ambient temps have almost no effect on my oil temps. At -40c my oil temps are at most 10f cooler than oil temps in mid summer.
Ambient temps may matter at start up but once the engine is up to operating temp ambient temp makes little to no difference
Hold your horses bud
Engines without oil coolers will see far more drastic changes in oil temperature with ambient.
I agreed.
Most manufactures drop the oil grades with temperature chart, but some still have it in the owner manual.
Clevy, you do not have an oil to water heat exchanger, but many add them.
And you guys can't simply align oil with water temp unless you account for design. High power density and oil squirters come to mind, FWIW the 6.1's oil temps are ALWAYS well above the coolant even if driven easy.
It's much more about LOAD than RPM's. Let the big dawg eat and there will be heat...
And you guys can't simply align oil with water temp unless you account for design. High power density and oil squirters come to mind, FWIW the 6.1's oil temps are ALWAYS well above the coolant even if driven easy.
It's much more about LOAD than RPM's. Let the big dawg eat and there will be heat...
Ambient temps do have an effect on oil temps... anyone who thinks otherwise needs to take a thermodynamics class.
Now, for the vast majority of us who drive water-cooled engines, we are lucky to have thermostats and large heat exchangers attached to our engines - which mostly mitigates the effect of ambient temperature after the car reaches operating temperature. Mostly being the key word. However, there certainly is still an effect, however minor it may be.
The biggest differences will obviously happen a) when it is very cold out, when the engine is losing heat to the ambient environment so fast that the thermostat needs to only partly open for the engine to reach equilibrium, and b) when it is very hot out, and your intake is sucking 120 degree air from the exhaust of the car in front of you and from the heat radiating off the pavement so hot you can fry an egg on it, and that same 120 degree air is trying its best to cool your radiator but even with your thermostat all the way open your engine temp starts to climb until you notice oh [censored] my coolant temp is like 240 and I need to shut her down NOW and let her cool off for a while.
And that's not accounting for localized hot-spots in the engine, some of which are not directly cooled by the cooling system, but by the oil.
I'm not saying that 0W-20 is no good in Arizona or 15W-40 is no good in North Dakota - But I am saying that there are a lot of factors involved and ambient temp is one of them.
Just my $0.02
Now, for the vast majority of us who drive water-cooled engines, we are lucky to have thermostats and large heat exchangers attached to our engines - which mostly mitigates the effect of ambient temperature after the car reaches operating temperature. Mostly being the key word. However, there certainly is still an effect, however minor it may be.
The biggest differences will obviously happen a) when it is very cold out, when the engine is losing heat to the ambient environment so fast that the thermostat needs to only partly open for the engine to reach equilibrium, and b) when it is very hot out, and your intake is sucking 120 degree air from the exhaust of the car in front of you and from the heat radiating off the pavement so hot you can fry an egg on it, and that same 120 degree air is trying its best to cool your radiator but even with your thermostat all the way open your engine temp starts to climb until you notice oh [censored] my coolant temp is like 240 and I need to shut her down NOW and let her cool off for a while.
And that's not accounting for localized hot-spots in the engine, some of which are not directly cooled by the cooling system, but by the oil.
I'm not saying that 0W-20 is no good in Arizona or 15W-40 is no good in North Dakota - But I am saying that there are a lot of factors involved and ambient temp is one of them.
Just my $0.02
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Clevy, you do not have an oil to water heat exchanger, but many add them.
Good to know Steve, I figured he had one, as I've seen them on those cars and figured they were standard equipment
Mind you, in retrospect I believe most of the ones I've seen were police cars, which do have it standard. Is it optional on the civilian model?
Clevy, you do not have an oil to water heat exchanger, but many add them.
Good to know Steve, I figured he had one, as I've seen them on those cars and figured they were standard equipment
Mind you, in retrospect I believe most of the ones I've seen were police cars, which do have it standard. Is it optional on the civilian model?
Originally Posted By: toyota62
Hi.
You guys have used and using 0w-20 and 5w-20 grades in various automobiles.(Makes and Models.)
What was the highest ambient temp you guys ran the 0w-20 or 5w-20 grade and how was the UOA reading if there any?
Cheers.
Bob.
Whatever the high was in Charlotte NC over the last 3-4 years. It would have been in the low 100s F. We consistently have temperatures in the 90s in the summer (sometimes 30 days or more in a row). I have done about 3 uoas on the wife's camry which gets M1 0W20 or 5W20EP depending upon my whim at a 10K miles interval. All the analyses indicate that the oil held up fine.
Hi.
You guys have used and using 0w-20 and 5w-20 grades in various automobiles.(Makes and Models.)
What was the highest ambient temp you guys ran the 0w-20 or 5w-20 grade and how was the UOA reading if there any?
Cheers.
Bob.
Whatever the high was in Charlotte NC over the last 3-4 years. It would have been in the low 100s F. We consistently have temperatures in the 90s in the summer (sometimes 30 days or more in a row). I have done about 3 uoas on the wife's camry which gets M1 0W20 or 5W20EP depending upon my whim at a 10K miles interval. All the analyses indicate that the oil held up fine.
I believe a better way to look at it would be that ambient temperatures have an effect on oil temperature. However, modern cars are designed to keep the oil temperature within the design range, so we shouldn't be overly concerned with using the oil that the engine was designed to use.
The cars are made to get the oil up to temperature faster when it is cold and keep it cool enough when it is hot outside. We should mainly worry about driving the car long enough when it is cold out to get the oil up to temperature and cook off the fuel and condensation from any short trips we may have inflicted on the oil.
The cars are made to get the oil up to temperature faster when it is cold and keep it cool enough when it is hot outside. We should mainly worry about driving the car long enough when it is cold out to get the oil up to temperature and cook off the fuel and condensation from any short trips we may have inflicted on the oil.
Ambient temps affect the operating temps by 10-20 degrees. Not a whole lot. As mentioned the thermostat is going to keep the engine block temp around 200deg. The only other cooling input would be the oil pan which is very inefficient.
The bigger thing is the starting temperature. That's where most wear occurs.
It seems extremely hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that engine rpm and load affect oil temp much more than ambient temps. You have to dissociate coolant temp from oil temp.
The bigger thing is the starting temperature. That's where most wear occurs.
It seems extremely hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that engine rpm and load affect oil temp much more than ambient temps. You have to dissociate coolant temp from oil temp.
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
we shouldn't be overly concerned with using the oil that the engine was designed to use
Do engineers really design an engine around the lubricant? How then is it OK for Ford to back-spec 5W-20 in all those engines that were designed to use 5W-30?
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
We should mainly worry about driving the car long enough when it is cold out to get the oil up to temperature and cook off the fuel and condensation from any short trips we may have inflicted on the oil.
I DO agree with you there. But for some reason that takes me a lot longer when it is -5F outside than it does when it is 95F outside. I guess, since modern cars are supposed to get the oil up to temp faster when it is cold, that GM just forgot to install the secondary oil warmer in my oil pan ; )
I'm not trying to start any arguments here, I just want people to think critically about the effects of environmental factors on their cars. Maybe the effects are insignificant in 99% of the circumstances, but at least acknowledge the effects so you'll know what to do if you're in the other 1%.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Ambient temps affect the operating temps by 10-20 degrees. Not a whole lot. As mentioned the thermostat is going to keep the engine block temp around 200deg. The only other cooling input would be the oil pan which is very inefficient.
The bigger thing is the starting temperature. That's where most wear occurs.
It seems extremely hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that engine rpm and load affect oil temp much more than ambient temps. You have to dissociate coolant temp from oil temp.
^^^This.
we shouldn't be overly concerned with using the oil that the engine was designed to use
Do engineers really design an engine around the lubricant? How then is it OK for Ford to back-spec 5W-20 in all those engines that were designed to use 5W-30?
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
We should mainly worry about driving the car long enough when it is cold out to get the oil up to temperature and cook off the fuel and condensation from any short trips we may have inflicted on the oil.
I DO agree with you there. But for some reason that takes me a lot longer when it is -5F outside than it does when it is 95F outside. I guess, since modern cars are supposed to get the oil up to temp faster when it is cold, that GM just forgot to install the secondary oil warmer in my oil pan ; )
I'm not trying to start any arguments here, I just want people to think critically about the effects of environmental factors on their cars. Maybe the effects are insignificant in 99% of the circumstances, but at least acknowledge the effects so you'll know what to do if you're in the other 1%.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Ambient temps affect the operating temps by 10-20 degrees. Not a whole lot. As mentioned the thermostat is going to keep the engine block temp around 200deg. The only other cooling input would be the oil pan which is very inefficient.
The bigger thing is the starting temperature. That's where most wear occurs.
It seems extremely hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that engine rpm and load affect oil temp much more than ambient temps. You have to dissociate coolant temp from oil temp.
^^^This.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Do engineers really design an engine around the lubricant? How then is it OK for Ford to back-spec 5W-20 in all those engines that were designed to use 5W-30?
The would design around a range of viscosities, I would suggest, along with an expected "normal" range of oil temperatures. After all, the viscosity does vary with temperature.
Regardless of ambient temperatures, coolant temperatures, viscosity, or whatever other variables we want to throw into this, when an engine is started, it's oil is going to be very thick. If its life is spent doing five minute runs, it's not going to get the oil very warm. If it never shuts off, on the other hand, a straight grade in an appropriate viscosity would do just as well as a normally specified multigrade.
Do engineers really design an engine around the lubricant? How then is it OK for Ford to back-spec 5W-20 in all those engines that were designed to use 5W-30?
The would design around a range of viscosities, I would suggest, along with an expected "normal" range of oil temperatures. After all, the viscosity does vary with temperature.
Regardless of ambient temperatures, coolant temperatures, viscosity, or whatever other variables we want to throw into this, when an engine is started, it's oil is going to be very thick. If its life is spent doing five minute runs, it's not going to get the oil very warm. If it never shuts off, on the other hand, a straight grade in an appropriate viscosity would do just as well as a normally specified multigrade.
Engineering tends to be evolutionary. The job of an engineer is to design within current constraints with a future target in mind. So the engineers would design around oil requirements, emissions requirements, fuel economy requirements, power requirements, etc.
When the available constraints shift or a design is proven to be reliable with new specification lubrication, backdating a spec can be done.
My claim was never that it gets to temperature at the same time irregardless of ambient, but rather much faster than the designs of the past decades. Features such as computer controlled firing & fuel mix control and oil/water "coolers" mitigate the effects suffered in previous decades. I would wager that my current engines would get to operating temperature quicker and maintain safe operating range more reliably than the self built 350 in my '66 Corvette I had 15 years ago.
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
we shouldn't be overly concerned with using the oil that the engine was designed to use
Do engineers really design an engine around the lubricant? How then is it OK for Ford to back-spec 5W-20 in all those engines that were designed to use 5W-30?
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
We should mainly worry about driving the car long enough when it is cold out to get the oil up to temperature and cook off the fuel and condensation from any short trips we may have inflicted on the oil.
I DO agree with you there. But for some reason that takes me a lot longer when it is -5F outside than it does when it is 95F outside. I guess, since modern cars are supposed to get the oil up to temp faster when it is cold, that GM just forgot to install the secondary oil warmer in my oil pan ; )
I'm not trying to start any arguments here, I just want people to think critically about the effects of environmental factors on their cars. Maybe the effects are insignificant in 99% of the circumstances, but at least acknowledge the effects so you'll know what to do if you're in the other 1%.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Ambient temps affect the operating temps by 10-20 degrees. Not a whole lot. As mentioned the thermostat is going to keep the engine block temp around 200deg. The only other cooling input would be the oil pan which is very inefficient.
The bigger thing is the starting temperature. That's where most wear occurs.
It seems extremely hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that engine rpm and load affect oil temp much more than ambient temps. You have to dissociate coolant temp from oil temp.
^^^This.
When the available constraints shift or a design is proven to be reliable with new specification lubrication, backdating a spec can be done.
My claim was never that it gets to temperature at the same time irregardless of ambient, but rather much faster than the designs of the past decades. Features such as computer controlled firing & fuel mix control and oil/water "coolers" mitigate the effects suffered in previous decades. I would wager that my current engines would get to operating temperature quicker and maintain safe operating range more reliably than the self built 350 in my '66 Corvette I had 15 years ago.
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
we shouldn't be overly concerned with using the oil that the engine was designed to use
Do engineers really design an engine around the lubricant? How then is it OK for Ford to back-spec 5W-20 in all those engines that were designed to use 5W-30?
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
We should mainly worry about driving the car long enough when it is cold out to get the oil up to temperature and cook off the fuel and condensation from any short trips we may have inflicted on the oil.
I DO agree with you there. But for some reason that takes me a lot longer when it is -5F outside than it does when it is 95F outside. I guess, since modern cars are supposed to get the oil up to temp faster when it is cold, that GM just forgot to install the secondary oil warmer in my oil pan ; )
I'm not trying to start any arguments here, I just want people to think critically about the effects of environmental factors on their cars. Maybe the effects are insignificant in 99% of the circumstances, but at least acknowledge the effects so you'll know what to do if you're in the other 1%.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Ambient temps affect the operating temps by 10-20 degrees. Not a whole lot. As mentioned the thermostat is going to keep the engine block temp around 200deg. The only other cooling input would be the oil pan which is very inefficient.
The bigger thing is the starting temperature. That's where most wear occurs.
It seems extremely hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that engine rpm and load affect oil temp much more than ambient temps. You have to dissociate coolant temp from oil temp.
^^^This.
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