I am running Pennzoil 10W-30(dino) in my 04’ F150 5.4L. It runs great, sounds no different than when it ran factory 5w-20 and notice no difference in gas mileage. The thick vs. thin crowds both make good arguments but for me the “thick boys” make a little more sense.
5W-30 vs 5W-20
- Thread starter hagerg
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oh yeah !!!
Bummer! I have 3 years and 61,000 miles on my Civic. It makes me sad that I will need to replace the engine in 9,000 miles.
although, funny thing is, its still running pretty good. Maybe I'll just hold off on the new car shopping til she dies
Thanks for the input on the 5w-20 vs 5w-30. I found this article:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance
that leads me to believe heavier is better in the long run.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance
that leads me to believe heavier is better in the long run.
Tom2002a,
It is naive to believe anything just because it appears in a trade journal, or an Ivory Tower professor's resarch paper, or the author that might have great credentials. I work at a research university and I know that some researchers can (and do) present "facts" to convince you of ANYTHING.
That article is just what it states at the beginning: a CHALLENGE to think about conventional wisdom. He doesn't provide much data to back up his challenges (or recommendation for 10w30/15w40), but rather just raises some good questions.
First, he sets up the article as if everyone drives huge SUV and pickups and uses them under severe, over heating conditions. Most SUV's today are on the smaller side and most SUV/truck owners are adverturist wanna-be's that merely use these vehicles to commute and carry kids to soccer games.
Temporary shear? Is that "problem" more significant that wear at cold start up? He doesn't back up the significance of this problem.
"SUVs and trucks, with their inherently less-efficient four-wheel drive and brick-wall aerodynamics, need powerful, gas-guzzling engines"
Again, he is showing his bias. Most pick ups on the road are are not 4 wd, and even my workplace Dodge 3/4 ton, V-8 Hemi gets 17mpg on the highway. Not super milage by any standard, but considering the vehicle...... he seems to think everyone is driving an 8mpg Humvee.
"But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling."
I agree, yes they MAY. But, short trips???? Most of these parameters don't apply to a freeway adventure to work every morning.
"If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?"
He consulted a DEALER for these "facts"?? Dealers are certainly believable. And, again, this logic doesn't hold up to HONDA, who has no problem meeting CAFE in North America.
In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties.
"In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties."
Sorry, is he saying that today's high additive HDEO's with SL ratings will void your warranty???
"Certainly engines that have experienced SIGNIFICANT ring and liner wear benefit from thicker oils."
Is he implying that 200,000 mile engines with insignificant wear would also benefit from thicker oils.
And, read the last two paragraphs. He states that his reccomendations might affect catalytic converter life, warranty, and cold start wear.
"The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick."
This is what the article is all about. It is not saying that thicker oil is best for EVERY application.
Again, read everything with a questioning mind. This article raises some points, but is not the gospel in any way. I think the 0w30 (AE Haas/Elves worshippers) might be on the best track.
[ April 23, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: doitmyself ]
It is naive to believe anything just because it appears in a trade journal, or an Ivory Tower professor's resarch paper, or the author that might have great credentials. I work at a research university and I know that some researchers can (and do) present "facts" to convince you of ANYTHING.
That article is just what it states at the beginning: a CHALLENGE to think about conventional wisdom. He doesn't provide much data to back up his challenges (or recommendation for 10w30/15w40), but rather just raises some good questions.
First, he sets up the article as if everyone drives huge SUV and pickups and uses them under severe, over heating conditions. Most SUV's today are on the smaller side and most SUV/truck owners are adverturist wanna-be's that merely use these vehicles to commute and carry kids to soccer games.
Temporary shear? Is that "problem" more significant that wear at cold start up? He doesn't back up the significance of this problem.
"SUVs and trucks, with their inherently less-efficient four-wheel drive and brick-wall aerodynamics, need powerful, gas-guzzling engines"
Again, he is showing his bias. Most pick ups on the road are are not 4 wd, and even my workplace Dodge 3/4 ton, V-8 Hemi gets 17mpg on the highway. Not super milage by any standard, but considering the vehicle...... he seems to think everyone is driving an 8mpg Humvee.
"But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling."
I agree, yes they MAY. But, short trips???? Most of these parameters don't apply to a freeway adventure to work every morning.
"If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?"
He consulted a DEALER for these "facts"?? Dealers are certainly believable. And, again, this logic doesn't hold up to HONDA, who has no problem meeting CAFE in North America.
In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties.
"In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties."
Sorry, is he saying that today's high additive HDEO's with SL ratings will void your warranty???
"Certainly engines that have experienced SIGNIFICANT ring and liner wear benefit from thicker oils."
Is he implying that 200,000 mile engines with insignificant wear would also benefit from thicker oils.
And, read the last two paragraphs. He states that his reccomendations might affect catalytic converter life, warranty, and cold start wear.
"The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick."
This is what the article is all about. It is not saying that thicker oil is best for EVERY application.
Again, read everything with a questioning mind. This article raises some points, but is not the gospel in any way. I think the 0w30 (AE Haas/Elves worshippers) might be on the best track.
[ April 23, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: doitmyself ]
Excellent discussion,
Although we all express opinions here, there are a few things that are for certain and cannot be debated.
1) The fact that certain engines like the Mazda MZR series are specified to run in Europe, Australia, and Asia with much thicker lubricants totally negates the concept that these engines were designed from the get-go to be run with 5W-20 lubricant. There is no logical explanation as to why they would design an engine for 5W-20 and then specify 15W-40 for Australia thus hurting fuel mileage,adding to exhaust emissions , and causing excess wear especially at start-up (since this oil is so far away from the optimzed design 5W-20 specification).
2) To quote someone else here, no oil is thin enough during a cold start and even the warmup period until one approaches 70% or 80% of the full operating temperature. Therefore, the 5 and 0W-20s provide an advantage in all engines during the startup- period and most of the warmup period, it's only at the higher sump temperature range where valid concerns and debates should begin. If you only driver 5 miles and live in canada, you can put this stuff in any engine.
3)The people on this board spend way too much time thinking/talking about viscosity specifications or grades and not enough about practical operating viscosities which is the only thing here of practical importance. This is effectively controlled by ambient temperatures (for startup) and mostly from there by length of trip. In other words, taking item 2) into account above, you'd be very safe and better off using 0W-20 in an engine specifying 10W-40 if you only drove 5 mile trips in cold weather.
You would also be running a thinner lubricant (except when the lube gets very hot where you want it to be thicker)if you ran 5W-30 in the Phoenix summer than if you ran 0W-20 in Canada. So why are you thin oil buffs getting onto people here for running thicker grade oils when they actually may be running thinner oil than you are. I know, it's because of the old......."your engine was designed for this stuff year round". Do you jabronies in this class/group think that viscosity stopped changing with temperature when they invented the old 5W-20? Some here seem to act like it did. Is this a marijuana issue or something? This is why why traditionally owners manuals have provided recommended viscosity versus temperature charts. Some of the motors that jabronies here insist were designed aroung 5W-20 still have these charts in foreign country owners manuals for the same engines. Only in America have these charts seemed to have disappeared and this fact alone should make those here with brains quite suspicious indeed......... In fact, why doesn't somebody give a better explanation for this than CAFE........I'm all ears.
Anyway..............regardless of what engine or what lubricant you use, ambient conditions, length of trip, driving style, all factor heavily into the viscosity question and specifying only one viscosity for all the myriad conditions and ambient temperatures sounds a little scary to 1911. It should make you think a little harder too.
4)The clearance mumbo jumbo continually fabricated by non-engineers on this board is total BS. Regardless of the clerarance in a main bearing, you will not form an fully protective oil wedge unless the right combination of lubricant viscosity and rpm are met for a given radial load. You cannot cut the clearance down towards zero and run a 0.3 centistoke lubricant and expect an oil wedge to form. Who started this mythology? I know who will end it.
I'm out!!!
Although we all express opinions here, there are a few things that are for certain and cannot be debated.
1) The fact that certain engines like the Mazda MZR series are specified to run in Europe, Australia, and Asia with much thicker lubricants totally negates the concept that these engines were designed from the get-go to be run with 5W-20 lubricant. There is no logical explanation as to why they would design an engine for 5W-20 and then specify 15W-40 for Australia thus hurting fuel mileage,adding to exhaust emissions , and causing excess wear especially at start-up (since this oil is so far away from the optimzed design 5W-20 specification).
2) To quote someone else here, no oil is thin enough during a cold start and even the warmup period until one approaches 70% or 80% of the full operating temperature. Therefore, the 5 and 0W-20s provide an advantage in all engines during the startup- period and most of the warmup period, it's only at the higher sump temperature range where valid concerns and debates should begin. If you only driver 5 miles and live in canada, you can put this stuff in any engine.
3)The people on this board spend way too much time thinking/talking about viscosity specifications or grades and not enough about practical operating viscosities which is the only thing here of practical importance. This is effectively controlled by ambient temperatures (for startup) and mostly from there by length of trip. In other words, taking item 2) into account above, you'd be very safe and better off using 0W-20 in an engine specifying 10W-40 if you only drove 5 mile trips in cold weather.
You would also be running a thinner lubricant (except when the lube gets very hot where you want it to be thicker)if you ran 5W-30 in the Phoenix summer than if you ran 0W-20 in Canada. So why are you thin oil buffs getting onto people here for running thicker grade oils when they actually may be running thinner oil than you are. I know, it's because of the old......."your engine was designed for this stuff year round". Do you jabronies in this class/group think that viscosity stopped changing with temperature when they invented the old 5W-20? Some here seem to act like it did. Is this a marijuana issue or something? This is why why traditionally owners manuals have provided recommended viscosity versus temperature charts. Some of the motors that jabronies here insist were designed aroung 5W-20 still have these charts in foreign country owners manuals for the same engines. Only in America have these charts seemed to have disappeared and this fact alone should make those here with brains quite suspicious indeed......... In fact, why doesn't somebody give a better explanation for this than CAFE........I'm all ears.
Anyway..............regardless of what engine or what lubricant you use, ambient conditions, length of trip, driving style, all factor heavily into the viscosity question and specifying only one viscosity for all the myriad conditions and ambient temperatures sounds a little scary to 1911. It should make you think a little harder too.
4)The clearance mumbo jumbo continually fabricated by non-engineers on this board is total BS. Regardless of the clerarance in a main bearing, you will not form an fully protective oil wedge unless the right combination of lubricant viscosity and rpm are met for a given radial load. You cannot cut the clearance down towards zero and run a 0.3 centistoke lubricant and expect an oil wedge to form. Who started this mythology? I know who will end it.
I'm out!!!
If you weren't aware, smoking crack is bad for your health.
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