When should I do the first oil change?

[GeorgeKaplan]

I don't follow the logic of early oil changes.

Damaging metals break off inside the new engine. These harmful particles travel through the engine scoring and damaging internal components until it gets trapped in the filter on the first pass. You drain perfectly clean and serviceable oil at 100 miles and install a new filter. Any damage has already been done.

More damaging metals break off inside the new engine. These harmful particles travel through the engine scoring and damaging internal components until it gets trapped in the filter on the first pass. You drain perfectly clean and serviceable oil at a total of 500 miles and install a new filter. Any damage has already been done.

More damaging metals break off inside the new engine. These harmful particles travel through the engine scoring and damaging internal components until it gets trapped in the filter on the first pass. You drain perfectly clean and serviceable oil at a total of 1000 miles and install a new filter. Any damage has already been done.

More damaging metals break off inside the new engine. These harmful particles travel through the engine scoring and damaging internal components until it gets trapped in the filter on the first pass. But because of your early drains, all is well now so follow the OLM.

 

[4WD]

Pretty extreme examples there … so do you think going 7500 miles right away has the exact same damage potential as dumping post break in period? Say 500-1000 miles.

I think our resident filter guy has posted on the subject of metal passing oil filters …

 

[PimTac]

Until they enact a law against it or even then, I will continue to change out my FF at 1000 miles. My car, my money.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Pretty extreme examples there … so do you think going 7500 miles right away has the exact same damage potential as dumping post break in period? Say 500-1000 miles.

I think our resident filter guy has posted on the subject of metal passing oil filters …


Yes. It's the excess wear metals that show up in a UOA of a new engine that didn't get trapped by the filter, that can cause damage too. An early oil change gets it out, sooner rather than later. If you do an oil change regime like Trav mentioned earlier you're really hedging your bet. I'll stick with changing it early.

 

[4WD]

Same> Just picture cold starts and the filter bypasses ~ or someone lucky enough to get a filter made by the torn media specialist companies ... the fines a 30 um filter misses
I’m not putting $30k to $60k at risk over $35

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Yes. It's the excess wear metals that show up in a UOA of a new engine that didn't get trapped by the filter, that can cause damage too. An early oil change gets it out, sooner rather than later. If you do an oil change regime like Trav mentioned earlier you're really hedging your bet. I'll stick with changing it early.

Well not really, in general the metals that show up in the UOA are too small of particle size to cause damage. The analysis equipment used for the UOA has an upper bound of detectable particle size and according to the Machinery Lubrication article illustration below those particles are not a threat.

When I performed oil analysis in college we did an acid digestion on the oil and this (combined with the results from the oil before the digestion) gave a rough indication of the amount of potentially harmful particles in the oil sample.

Whatever the case be aware of the limitations of a standard UOA and how it is being performed, and what it is actually showing. Essentially what this graph shows is that on the basis of a typical UOA you really have no idea how much damaging metallic material is present in a sample.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted By: Twodogs10mm
Wow, Thanks for all the replies, I think I'm going to like this forum. I am going go with an early change and change it this weekend. I'm going to use 5/20w full synthetic. But which one? Pennzoil, royal purple, valvoline or?? Moly or no moly? Sodium? any suggestions?

Thanks


Congrats on your new truck. I own a 2013 Ram Bighorn Ext Cab Hemi and it is, by far, the best truck I have ever owned! I was strictly a GM guy for years, or since I turned 16. I am now 53.
My Ram currently has just over 60,000 km's. I dumped the oil early (500-1000 km's, can't remember exactly, but it was early) and have been running Pennzoil Platinum in it ever since. To this day, towing a boat and snowmobiles occasionally, it doesn't use a drop of oil between OC's, which I usually do around 8,000 to 10,000 OCI's.

My Ram, compared to my last 09 5.3 Sierra LTZ, is night and day different. This Ram would absolutely embarrass it if I still owned it. New motor in my Sierra at 8,000 KM's because it clacked like a diesel was only one of the major problems I had with it. I haven't missed it for one second since I purchased my Ram.

Enjoy, I hope it serves you well like mine has.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Same> Just picture cold starts and the filter bypasses ~ or someone lucky enough to get a filter made by the torn media specialist companies ... the fines a 30 um filter misses
I’m not putting $30k to $60k at risk over $35


Using this logic, you should be changing your oil after every start.

Just picture this piece of damaging material that's stuck in an oil return hole in the top half of the engine when you change the FF at 100 miles.

Just picture this same piece of damaging material that stayed in the engine when you changed the FF at 100 miles, still damaging the engine because of bypass and the filter you chose to use doesn't do it's job. So you drain the oil at 500 miles. But now this piece of damaging material is wedged in the vanes of your oil pump. It must still be in there otherwise you would see it in your drain pan, take a picture of it, post the picture on this forum and tell everyone the importance of early oil changes.

Just picture this same piece of damaging material that stayed in the engine when you changed the oil at 500 miles, still damaging the engine because of bypass and the filter you chose to use doesn't do it's job. So you drain the oil at 1000 miles. But now this piece of damaging material is sitting in the oil pan and did not drain out with the oil. It must still be in there otherwise you would see it in your drain pan, take a picture of it, post the picture on this forum and tell everyone the importance of early oil changes. But since you did these few early drains, you will follow the OLM and all is well.

You bought an assembled engine. If there's harmful particles causing damage, the damage has already been done before you drove it off the lot.

 

[4WD]

Your first line is pure nonsense …
My example was 500-1000 miles and you jump back to 100 miles …
I quit reading after that …

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Pretty extreme examples there … so do you think going 7500 miles right away has the exact same damage potential as dumping post break in period? Say 500-1000 miles.

I think our resident filter guy has posted on the subject of metal passing oil filters …


There's nothing extreme about my examples. The purpose of draining the FF early is to get all of these damaging particles out, correct? So how do you know when they are all out? How early is too early? How late is too late?

I'm an example of one but in my 40+ years of driving and never draining the FF early, I've never had an engine issue that can be directly traced to leaving the FF in for the full manufacturer's recommendation.

 

[PimTac]

“Using this logic, you should be changing your oil after every start.”



This is about changing the oil during break in. There must be a hundred threads on this subject here each year. Two sides of the coin.

So picture this; you will not change the minds of those who advocate early changes.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Your first line is pure nonsense …
My example was 500-1000 miles and you jump back to 100 miles …
I quit reading after that …


That's okay. I have no emotional vestment and I'm not trying to change your mind. Do what makes you feel good. I got no problems with how you service your engines.

For the record, my extreme examples (as you call them) goes back to the second post in this thread and that member who recommends these types of short drain and fills. Matters not. Insert any mileage numbers you are comfortable using. It changes nothing. Something or anything can break off in the internals of your engine at any time or any place. It will be out of your control. Deal with it as it happens. It's just an engine in a vehicle.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: GeorgeKaplan
The purpose of draining the FF early is to get all of these damaging particles out, correct? So how do you know when they are all out?
That is an easy question to answer--on the twelfth of never. With that said, there are MORE particles created in the early life of an engine versus later in its life due to break-in (barring any mechanical issues). This is even more evident in something like a rear axle where the vast majority of the wear metals are created at 10K or less miles.

 

[fdcg27]

Whatever floats your boat.
Since you don't appear to be in the habit of buying anything new very frequently, you don't have a dog in this fight anyway.
If you think that a plethora of early drains will somehow extend the life of your next new engine, have at it.
The experience accumulated with hundreds of thousands of fleet cars, not just my few personal vehicles, show that short drains early in the life of an engine are no more than a waste of time and money, since fleets don't do these and many run vehicles out to 200K+ before the vehicles are sent to auction, and fleet managers are well aware that those who drive the vehicles will never check the oil level.
I do find all of this debate about when to drain the FF engine oil a little amusing since the other major drivetrain part, the automatic transmission, which really would benefit from a drain in the first 10K or so, is completely ignored and more cars are retired due to transmission failure than because their engines died.
Incidentally, I've had a few 200K+ engines and of those only the MB diesels used any noticeable amount of oil.
The reason that I replied to your original post was that you've previously posted the ridiculous break-in OCI schedule recommended by Mr. Jim and I debunked it then and feel the need to do so again so as not to leave new members with the false impression that this is somehow the received wisdom of the one true expert rather than the one man's opinion that it is.

 

[eyeofthetiger]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Whatever floats your boat.
Since you don't appear to be in the habit of buying anything new very frequently, you don't have a dog in this fight anyway.
If you think that a plethora of early drains will somehow extend the life of your next new engine, have at it.
The experience accumulated with hundreds of thousands of fleet cars, not just my few personal vehicles, show that short drains early in the life of an engine are no more than a waste of time and money, since fleets don't do these and many run vehicles out to 200K+ before the vehicles are sent to auction, and fleet managers are well aware that those who drive the vehicles will never check the oil level.
I do find all of this debate about when to drain the FF engine oil a little amusing since the other major drivetrain part, the automatic transmission, which really would benefit from a drain in the first 10K or so, is completely ignored and more cars are retired due to transmission failure than because their engines died.
Incidentally, I've had a few 200K+ engines and of those only the MB diesels used any noticeable amount of oil.
The reason that I replied to your original post was that you've previously posted the ridiculous break-in OCI schedule recommended by Mr. Jim and I debunked it then and feel the need to do so again so as not to leave new members with the false impression that this is somehow the received wisdom of the one true expert rather than the one man's opinion that it is.



"fleets don't do these"

That's funny, because I used to manage a fleet, and I did them.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger

"fleets don't do these"

That's funny, because I used to manage a fleet, and I did them.


Ok, what kind of fleet was it for, a fleet of busses?

 

[eyeofthetiger]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger

"fleets don't do these"

That's funny, because I used to manage a fleet, and I did them.


Ok, what kind of fleet was it for, a fleet of busses?


3/4-ton 4x4 crew cab trucks with utility bodies, and a few vans.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger

"fleets don't do these"

That's funny, because I used to manage a fleet, and I did them.


Ok, what kind of fleet was it for, a fleet of busses?


3/4-ton 4x4 crew cab trucks with utility bodies, and a few vans.


My buddies Father owns a local taxi company and he gets him and his other brothers to maintain his fleet, which includes early oil dumps on his new cars (when he upgrades) as well as doing regular oil changes.
To "blanket" say "all" fleet owners don't do these is not only untrue, it is also misleading, especially to those who would now think twice about purchasing a used one.
The taxi's are his life so he has vested interest in keeping them in tip top running condition.

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

I've always done the first oil change early usually between 1000 to 1500 miles, because that's what my Dad has always done. Then do the regular OCI after that. This new one is getting it's first next week with the free oil change from the dealer. It will be around 850 miles then. Bit earlier than normal but the holidays are coming and things get busy. Does it make a difference? I'm not sure but makes me feel better about it.

 

[4WD]

And that’s all I’m doing ~ one early post break in change (was 832 miles right before a road trip) and let the OLM run the show after that … Others suggested multiple stages ... if I planned it that way ... would of used the cheapest oil per spec ... not what I put in …
Also putting a Fram Ultra on got me where I knew the filtration ability and reliability …