Good example of general 10k suggestion re. syn and oci being just that. You made some adjustments that should work. You might try Ultra as the add pack is suppose to have 3387ppm detergent/dispersantin 5-30 flavor. EP is suppose to have 1697ppm.
What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?
- Thread starter Adam_in_NH
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Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
The owners manual specify's Premium Grade, API certified 5W-30 conventional motor oil for gasoline engines, but allows synthetic oil of the same grade.
Are you positive that it's 5W-30? And this is an owner's manual intended for the United States market? I'm not aware of any North American Honda that has specified a 30 grade oil in the last decade, save for the S2000. The Honda job aide I'm aware of shows that 5W-20 was the grade in the owner's manual and that 0W-20 is "acceptable".
Does your oil fill cap on the front cylinder head cover also show 5W-30?
I'm also anxiously awaiting pictures of the sludge on this engine. And the oil fill cap that shows 5W-30...that'd be the first one on a Honda J-series V-6 engine that I've seen. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to confirm.
The owners manual specify's Premium Grade, API certified 5W-30 conventional motor oil for gasoline engines, but allows synthetic oil of the same grade.
Are you positive that it's 5W-30? And this is an owner's manual intended for the United States market? I'm not aware of any North American Honda that has specified a 30 grade oil in the last decade, save for the S2000. The Honda job aide I'm aware of shows that 5W-20 was the grade in the owner's manual and that 0W-20 is "acceptable".
Does your oil fill cap on the front cylinder head cover also show 5W-30?
I'm also anxiously awaiting pictures of the sludge on this engine. And the oil fill cap that shows 5W-30...that'd be the first one on a Honda J-series V-6 engine that I've seen. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to confirm.
Next couple changes will be GET 5W-30. Free After Rebate certainly helps frequent OCI's.
I really appreciate all the great comments on my failing engine, but doesn't 10K miles on conventional oil equal planned obsolescence? I see there is some debate on how long to run conventional oil. My first three oil changes were done as per the Maintenance Minder's recommendation at 10346, 10178, and 10192 miles despite me voicing my concerns to my dealer and asking about running synthetic oil. A Mobil hotline rep told me that the Mobil Super oil used in my Pilot will lubricate for 5000 miles and much longer, but the additives will start to break down after the 5000 mile mark and end up sticking to the inside of the engine. Today the dealer clarified that the "sludge" he found on the valve train was more like heavy varnish. With 30,000 miles a year and much of that at 75 MPH on the highway, I believe we can rule out 'short trip condensation'. The only cause that makes sense to me is that the oil was indeed breaking down over the lifetime of the motor. I'm burning no significant oil so where else would the heavy varnish come from?
The basic warranty on this oil is 5000 miles but Mobil does defer to the manufacturer's recommendation beyond that. So it seems to me that Mobil is letting Honda dictate how long their oil will run in my Pilot. And Honda is telling me to run that oil more than twice, yes TWICE, the manufacturer's base recommendation! This does not feel like automotive engineering, it feels like business politics. I would say that Mobil is not at fault here except they are letting Honda have control over their oil longevity. But not really, because the oil is simply not lasting. I'm guessing here, but I'll bet you a beer that Honda profits more on vehicle repairs and vehicle replacements then on regular vehicle maintenance. So, as much as it pains me, I have to ask the question, "Is more than doubling an oil change interval part of a larger strategy of planned obsolescence, in addition to the marketing strategy of an engine running on less maintenance".
I have also been told that some auto manufacturers specify a lighter oil to get better gas mileage, which is of course a very important competitive advantage. Is this another contributing factor to my engine's demise? I would not find this hard to believe considering the tires which came with my vehicle seemed to be designed for good mileage and nothing else.
I understand that Honda started specifying a Super-Synthetic hybrid oil blend for the 2011 model year, yet their engine technology had not apparently changed that much since my 2009 model. So why the better oil, Honda, too many vehicles failing before their planned departure date?
Incidentally, some folks have suggested that I should know better then to let the oil run so long. I do - my Chevy Savanna van gets heavy use we change its synthetic oil every 5000 miles. I checked today and it has over 160k miles and NO varnish. In the case of my Honda I deferred to my dealer because I was concerned about following his recommendation to maintain the warranty.
I believe I have been a bit too trusting here and the above issues have been conspiring to foul and fail an engine that should have lasted at least twice as long as its 90K miles, if not more. Because this situation likely started when the vehicle was well under warranty, I did in fact escalate this to Honda America . They told me to have the Maintenance Minder diagnosed by the dealer. Trouble is, my dealer has no such service procedure. The dealers response is to speak with their local Honda Rep next week. Stay tuned, friends.
The basic warranty on this oil is 5000 miles but Mobil does defer to the manufacturer's recommendation beyond that. So it seems to me that Mobil is letting Honda dictate how long their oil will run in my Pilot. And Honda is telling me to run that oil more than twice, yes TWICE, the manufacturer's base recommendation! This does not feel like automotive engineering, it feels like business politics. I would say that Mobil is not at fault here except they are letting Honda have control over their oil longevity. But not really, because the oil is simply not lasting. I'm guessing here, but I'll bet you a beer that Honda profits more on vehicle repairs and vehicle replacements then on regular vehicle maintenance. So, as much as it pains me, I have to ask the question, "Is more than doubling an oil change interval part of a larger strategy of planned obsolescence, in addition to the marketing strategy of an engine running on less maintenance".
I have also been told that some auto manufacturers specify a lighter oil to get better gas mileage, which is of course a very important competitive advantage. Is this another contributing factor to my engine's demise? I would not find this hard to believe considering the tires which came with my vehicle seemed to be designed for good mileage and nothing else.
I understand that Honda started specifying a Super-Synthetic hybrid oil blend for the 2011 model year, yet their engine technology had not apparently changed that much since my 2009 model. So why the better oil, Honda, too many vehicles failing before their planned departure date?
Incidentally, some folks have suggested that I should know better then to let the oil run so long. I do - my Chevy Savanna van gets heavy use we change its synthetic oil every 5000 miles. I checked today and it has over 160k miles and NO varnish. In the case of my Honda I deferred to my dealer because I was concerned about following his recommendation to maintain the warranty.
I believe I have been a bit too trusting here and the above issues have been conspiring to foul and fail an engine that should have lasted at least twice as long as its 90K miles, if not more. Because this situation likely started when the vehicle was well under warranty, I did in fact escalate this to Honda America . They told me to have the Maintenance Minder diagnosed by the dealer. Trouble is, my dealer has no such service procedure. The dealers response is to speak with their local Honda Rep next week. Stay tuned, friends.
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Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
My first three oil changes were done as per the Maintenance Minder's recommendation at 10346, 10178, and 10192 miles despite me voicing my concerns to my dealer and asking about running synthetic oil.
Those seem like long intervals relative to mine and others who have posted in the last 6 years. Mine has triggered at as low as 5700 miles and never over 8000 miles. Most people post - 6-8K mile MM triggering.
My first three oil changes were done as per the Maintenance Minder's recommendation at 10346, 10178, and 10192 miles despite me voicing my concerns to my dealer and asking about running synthetic oil.
Those seem like long intervals relative to mine and others who have posted in the last 6 years. Mine has triggered at as low as 5700 miles and never over 8000 miles. Most people post - 6-8K mile MM triggering.
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least. OP did mention the noise went away for a week using a high mileage(thicker) oil..5w20?
0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather
0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather
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Originally Posted By: garlicbreadman
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least.
Please explain in detail. I mean right off the top, if the viscosity was the root cause, wouldn't the problem happen with synthetic oil as well?
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least.
Please explain in detail. I mean right off the top, if the viscosity was the root cause, wouldn't the problem happen with synthetic oil as well?
Originally Posted By: garlicbreadman
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least. OP did mention the noise went away for a week using a high mileage(thicker) oil..5w20?
0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather
This is very interesting. How did you come to this conclusion?
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least. OP did mention the noise went away for a week using a high mileage(thicker) oil..5w20?
0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather
This is very interesting. How did you come to this conclusion?
Originally Posted By: garlicbreadman
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least. OP did mention the noise went away for a week using a high mileage(thicker) oil..5w20?
0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather
I don't think its the oil grade at all. I think its a poorly designed engine with an OLM that needs to be tweaked into shorter OCI's.
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least. OP did mention the noise went away for a week using a high mileage(thicker) oil..5w20?
0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather
I don't think its the oil grade at all. I think its a poorly designed engine with an OLM that needs to be tweaked into shorter OCI's.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
My first three oil changes were done as per the Maintenance Minder's recommendation at 10346, 10178, and 10192 miles despite me voicing my concerns to my dealer and asking about running synthetic oil.
Those seem like long intervals relative to mine and others who have posted in the last 6 years. Mine has triggered at as low as 5700 miles and never over 8000 miles. Most people post - 6-8K mile MM triggering.
Agreed. I think 6-8k is the normal MM range. 10k seems excessive.
And how likely is it that a dealer would refuse a customer upselling themselves to synthetic oil? Dealer would gladly take the extra $ for the synthetic service if customer asked about it. This story is not adding up.
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
My first three oil changes were done as per the Maintenance Minder's recommendation at 10346, 10178, and 10192 miles despite me voicing my concerns to my dealer and asking about running synthetic oil.
Those seem like long intervals relative to mine and others who have posted in the last 6 years. Mine has triggered at as low as 5700 miles and never over 8000 miles. Most people post - 6-8K mile MM triggering.
Agreed. I think 6-8k is the normal MM range. 10k seems excessive.
And how likely is it that a dealer would refuse a customer upselling themselves to synthetic oil? Dealer would gladly take the extra $ for the synthetic service if customer asked about it. This story is not adding up.
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Originally Posted By: Tortuga
]Those seem like long intervals relative to mine and others who have posted in the last 6 years. Mine has triggered at as low as 5700 miles and never over 8000 miles. Most people post - 6-8K mile MM triggering.
Agreed. I think 6-8k is the normal MM range. 10k seems excessive.
And how likely is it that a dealer would refuse a customer upselling themselves to synthetic oil? Dealer would gladly take the extra $ for the synthetic service if customer asked about it. This story is not adding up. [/quote]
It is the discipline of sticking firmly to the factory recommendations. Many dealers do this so they are not viewed as the ones who are overselling unnecessary services. At least out here, the perception is that dealers are the ones who do not go overboard on the upsells as opposed to the quickie lubes.
As far as the Maintenance Minder goes, I know of 3 vehicles close to me that routinely go 10-11k on the Maintenance Minder.
2008 CRV: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly highway driving.
2009 Fit: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly city driving
2012 Civic: 0w-20, reaches 15% at about 11k, mostly highway driving.
So, it seems that the newest Hondas (2008+) will easily go 10k between services on the Maintenance Minder regardless of oil type. In comparison, the 2008 Acura TSX that I service goes about 4500 miles in city driving before reaching 15%.
]Those seem like long intervals relative to mine and others who have posted in the last 6 years. Mine has triggered at as low as 5700 miles and never over 8000 miles. Most people post - 6-8K mile MM triggering.
Agreed. I think 6-8k is the normal MM range. 10k seems excessive.
And how likely is it that a dealer would refuse a customer upselling themselves to synthetic oil? Dealer would gladly take the extra $ for the synthetic service if customer asked about it. This story is not adding up. [/quote]
It is the discipline of sticking firmly to the factory recommendations. Many dealers do this so they are not viewed as the ones who are overselling unnecessary services. At least out here, the perception is that dealers are the ones who do not go overboard on the upsells as opposed to the quickie lubes.
As far as the Maintenance Minder goes, I know of 3 vehicles close to me that routinely go 10-11k on the Maintenance Minder.
2008 CRV: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly highway driving.
2009 Fit: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly city driving
2012 Civic: 0w-20, reaches 15% at about 11k, mostly highway driving.
So, it seems that the newest Hondas (2008+) will easily go 10k between services on the Maintenance Minder regardless of oil type. In comparison, the 2008 Acura TSX that I service goes about 4500 miles in city driving before reaching 15%.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
2008 CRV: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly highway driving.
2009 Fit: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly city driving
2012 Civic: 0w-20, reaches 15% at about 11k, mostly highway driving.
Those are very different platforms, no comparison - they may use similar algorithms but with tweaked constants. Talk to the 3.5V6 folks.
2008 CRV: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly highway driving.
2009 Fit: 5w-20, reaches 15% at about 10k, mostly city driving
2012 Civic: 0w-20, reaches 15% at about 11k, mostly highway driving.
Those are very different platforms, no comparison - they may use similar algorithms but with tweaked constants. Talk to the 3.5V6 folks.
Originally Posted By: Rand
nice first post welcome to bitog and i hope you arent a trolling
formerly banned member here.
Maybe.....Adam Vasbinder? Maybe not. Time will tell.
nice first post welcome to bitog and i hope you arent a trolling
formerly banned member here.
Maybe.....Adam Vasbinder? Maybe not. Time will tell.
The argument that because the OP had bad luck with his OLM recommendations and his car (or maybe for this whole model) is like the argument that seat belts or helmets kill more people then they save.
Or that just because 1 kid out of a billion has an allergic reaction to a vaccination that it does more harm then good; so we should ban all vaccinations (which is why federal law sets up a special fund and law to absolve vaccine manufacturers of the rare cases that would chill them, so we can have vaccinations).
Do what you want with your car, but nobody's out to get you.
Or that just because 1 kid out of a billion has an allergic reaction to a vaccination that it does more harm then good; so we should ban all vaccinations (which is why federal law sets up a special fund and law to absolve vaccine manufacturers of the rare cases that would chill them, so we can have vaccinations).
Do what you want with your car, but nobody's out to get you.
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Exactly! This appears to be a very unique situation applicable to this engine.
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Sounds like the OLM is just taking it to far. It's not the only vehicle doing this.
I think that hits the nail on the head. The OP followed recommendations. It's not his fault. There have been plenty of overly optimistic factory OCIs before. Most maintenance minders and factory OCIs are sensible, but there obviously are exceptions.
Sounds like the OLM is just taking it to far. It's not the only vehicle doing this.
I think that hits the nail on the head. The OP followed recommendations. It's not his fault. There have been plenty of overly optimistic factory OCIs before. Most maintenance minders and factory OCIs are sensible, but there obviously are exceptions.
Holy smokes... this is one busy thread... My question...
Does the owners manual specify a very specific oil?
My Fords say... Motorcraft 5w-20 Synthetic blend for 5000mi intervals... for example.
Another Ford says 7500mi on Motorcraft Full Synthetic.
I have one with an OLM... it seems to be set for 6 months/5K miles.
Some owners manuals call for a specific oil... I use what I want, but I make sure I at least use "As Good As" the specified oil.
Does the owners manual specify a very specific oil?
My Fords say... Motorcraft 5w-20 Synthetic blend for 5000mi intervals... for example.
Another Ford says 7500mi on Motorcraft Full Synthetic.
I have one with an OLM... it seems to be set for 6 months/5K miles.
Some owners manuals call for a specific oil... I use what I want, but I make sure I at least use "As Good As" the specified oil.
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Originally Posted By: jek
wow...thank god i didn't buy a new pilot. unless the current 12' were revised but i haven't heard of anything of such nature. sounds like the same old vcm [censored] on the current 3.5l
I really like the vehicle, but not its computer. I'll buy another Honda for sure if they make this right.
wow...thank god i didn't buy a new pilot. unless the current 12' were revised but i haven't heard of anything of such nature. sounds like the same old vcm [censored] on the current 3.5l
I really like the vehicle, but not its computer. I'll buy another Honda for sure if they make this right.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
The owners manual specify's Premium Grade, API certified 5W-30 conventional motor oil for gasoline engines, but allows synthetic oil of the same grade.
Are you positive that it's 5W-30? And this is an owner's manual intended for the United States market? I'm not aware of any North American Honda that has specified a 30 grade oil in the last decade, save for the S2000. The Honda job aide I'm aware of shows that 5W-20 was the grade in the owner's manual and that 0W-20 is "acceptable".
Does your oil fill cap on the front cylinder head cover also show 5W-30?
I'm also anxiously awaiting pictures of the sludge on this engine. And the oil fill cap that shows 5W-30...that'd be the first one on a Honda J-series V-6 engine that I've seen. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to confirm.
Sorry for my type-O. The manual does indeed call for 5W-20. I'll go take a picture down the oil filler right now.
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
The owners manual specify's Premium Grade, API certified 5W-30 conventional motor oil for gasoline engines, but allows synthetic oil of the same grade.
Are you positive that it's 5W-30? And this is an owner's manual intended for the United States market? I'm not aware of any North American Honda that has specified a 30 grade oil in the last decade, save for the S2000. The Honda job aide I'm aware of shows that 5W-20 was the grade in the owner's manual and that 0W-20 is "acceptable".
Does your oil fill cap on the front cylinder head cover also show 5W-30?
I'm also anxiously awaiting pictures of the sludge on this engine. And the oil fill cap that shows 5W-30...that'd be the first one on a Honda J-series V-6 engine that I've seen. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to confirm.
Sorry for my type-O. The manual does indeed call for 5W-20. I'll go take a picture down the oil filler right now.
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Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
That is a very interesting and astute point of view.
It also feels like the OLM is designed to protect manufacturer profitability.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
That is a very interesting and astute point of view.
It also feels like the OLM is designed to protect manufacturer profitability.
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