No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
VW 2.5L and 502 Approved Oils
- Thread starter CARJ
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle007
The us uses thin and light oils, Europe likes heavier weight oil, light weight oil is for fuel economy, ACEA spec is way better than API, read into it, way more demanding, also in Europe, to call an oil synthetic, it must be made with a PAO group IV, not group III, so to get euro spec synthetic, it must meet those mfg specs. Even Honda in Europe calls for acea a3/b4. Only use 0/20 for fuel economy or use 0/30, 5/40 or a 0/40
Please tell us what brand of oil is PAO? We will be waiting.
Redline, amsoil, total,laqui moli, RP, GC 0/30, GC 0/40
Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle007
The us uses thin and light oils, Europe likes heavier weight oil, light weight oil is for fuel economy, ACEA spec is way better than API, read into it, way more demanding, also in Europe, to call an oil synthetic, it must be made with a PAO group IV, not group III, so to get euro spec synthetic, it must meet those mfg specs. Even Honda in Europe calls for acea a3/b4. Only use 0/20 for fuel economy or use 0/30, 5/40 or a 0/40
Please tell us what brand of oil is PAO? We will be waiting.
Redline, amsoil, total,laqui moli, RP, GC 0/30, GC 0/40
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
Group III is allowed under the law. That law is ONLY applicable to Germany, not rest of EU. It states that oil has to have at least 50% of synthetic base, either Group IV or V. You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil. You would not be able to meet numerous specifications as each base has its drawbacks too, etc. The final product is what matters, not wether oil is PAO based or Ester based. Mobil1 5W30 has only up to 5% esters, it is predominantly Group III oil, yet it is probably best ACEA C3 oil on the market.
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
Group III is allowed under the law. That law is ONLY applicable to Germany, not rest of EU. It states that oil has to have at least 50% of synthetic base, either Group IV or V. You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil. You would not be able to meet numerous specifications as each base has its drawbacks too, etc. The final product is what matters, not wether oil is PAO based or Ester based. Mobil1 5W30 has only up to 5% esters, it is predominantly Group III oil, yet it is probably best ACEA C3 oil on the market.
Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle007
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle007
The us uses thin and light oils, Europe likes heavier weight oil, light weight oil is for fuel economy, ACEA spec is way better than API, read into it, way more demanding, also in Europe, to call an oil synthetic, it must be made with a PAO group IV, not group III, so to get euro spec synthetic, it must meet those mfg specs. Even Honda in Europe calls for acea a3/b4. Only use 0/20 for fuel economy or use 0/30, 5/40 or a 0/40
Please tell us what brand of oil is PAO? We will be waiting.
Redline, amsoil, total,laqui moli, RP, GC 0/30, GC 0/40
Redline: Oils that are NOT approved are majority esters (GrV). Oils that are approved are majority Group III, and pretty mediocre oils.
Amsoil is in many applications mostly Group III, especially in approved ones.
Total: Group III
Liqui Moly: Group III
RP: Not sure
German Castrol: Who knows, some pds are saying majority PAO some not. German Castrol web site kicked out 0W40 from Full Synthetic list. But who cares, still very good oil.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle007
The us uses thin and light oils, Europe likes heavier weight oil, light weight oil is for fuel economy, ACEA spec is way better than API, read into it, way more demanding, also in Europe, to call an oil synthetic, it must be made with a PAO group IV, not group III, so to get euro spec synthetic, it must meet those mfg specs. Even Honda in Europe calls for acea a3/b4. Only use 0/20 for fuel economy or use 0/30, 5/40 or a 0/40
Please tell us what brand of oil is PAO? We will be waiting.
Redline, amsoil, total,laqui moli, RP, GC 0/30, GC 0/40
Redline: Oils that are NOT approved are majority esters (GrV). Oils that are approved are majority Group III, and pretty mediocre oils.
Amsoil is in many applications mostly Group III, especially in approved ones.
Total: Group III
Liqui Moly: Group III
RP: Not sure
German Castrol: Who knows, some pds are saying majority PAO some not. German Castrol web site kicked out 0W40 from Full Synthetic list. But who cares, still very good oil.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
Group III is allowed under the law. That law is ONLY applicable to Germany, not rest of EU. It states that oil has to have at least 50% of synthetic base, either Group IV or V. You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil. You would not be able to meet numerous specifications as each base has its drawbacks too, etc. The final product is what matters, not wether oil is PAO based or Ester based. Mobil1 5W30 has only up to 5% esters, it is predominantly Group III oil, yet it is probably best ACEA C3 oil on the market.
bad about M1 5w-30 esp is the Tbn and the cold flow
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
Group III is allowed under the law. That law is ONLY applicable to Germany, not rest of EU. It states that oil has to have at least 50% of synthetic base, either Group IV or V. You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil. You would not be able to meet numerous specifications as each base has its drawbacks too, etc. The final product is what matters, not wether oil is PAO based or Ester based. Mobil1 5W30 has only up to 5% esters, it is predominantly Group III oil, yet it is probably best ACEA C3 oil on the market.
bad about M1 5w-30 esp is the Tbn and the cold flow
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
Group III is allowed under the law. That law is ONLY applicable to Germany, not rest of EU. It states that oil has to have at least 50% of synthetic base, either Group IV or V. You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil. You would not be able to meet numerous specifications as each base has its drawbacks too, etc. The final product is what matters, not wether oil is PAO based or Ester based. Mobil1 5W30 has only up to 5% esters, it is predominantly Group III oil, yet it is probably best ACEA C3 oil on the market.
Look where the site is I linked to or didn't you bother to even look? Those are German oils being sold in Germany.
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
Group III is allowed under the law. That law is ONLY applicable to Germany, not rest of EU. It states that oil has to have at least 50% of synthetic base, either Group IV or V. You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil. You would not be able to meet numerous specifications as each base has its drawbacks too, etc. The final product is what matters, not wether oil is PAO based or Ester based. Mobil1 5W30 has only up to 5% esters, it is predominantly Group III oil, yet it is probably best ACEA C3 oil on the market.
Look where the site is I linked to or didn't you bother to even look? Those are German oils being sold in Germany.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil.
Of course you can. They exist now and have done in the past.
The German situation is that in order to be "vollsynthetische" (full synthetic) an oil must be 100% PAO or appropriate group V. Group III is still considered to be synthetic, but it is a separately-defined type of synthetic called "HC-synthese" (hydrocracked synthesis).
With this in mind, now follow the link that was provided above by Trav.
Originally Posted By: Trav
No grp III its not allowed under the law, there maybe some grp V in it.
You cannot have 100% PAO or Ester oil.
Of course you can. They exist now and have done in the past.
The German situation is that in order to be "vollsynthetische" (full synthetic) an oil must be 100% PAO or appropriate group V. Group III is still considered to be synthetic, but it is a separately-defined type of synthetic called "HC-synthese" (hydrocracked synthesis).
With this in mind, now follow the link that was provided above by Trav.
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Don't think I quite get the purpose of this thread. Different engines, different oil requirements. Just because one runs on ILSAC rated 5W-30 doesn't automatically mean the other will run flawlessly on it. Specifications are there for a reason, best not be penny wise and pound foolish.
its hard to keep up with changing laws especially in other countries so let me know whats what! i know PAO + Ester base oils are superior requiring less additives to prop up the specs when NEW + UNUSED but cost is an issue + i believe oils blended for import to USA from WHEREVER are guided by our laws allowing good group III oils labeled synthetic, where oils SOLD in germany must abide by their laws. one look at lower prices tells you they are the good but not as good cheaper group III base oils
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Germans convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Germans convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Krauts convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Is that why Toyota also recommends same oils in Europe as VW?
Or you talking about Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge bombs?
It would be very hard to argue that your knowledge of engines surpasses that of my 2 year old. And I own both Toyota and VW.
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Krauts convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Is that why Toyota also recommends same oils in Europe as VW?
Or you talking about Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge bombs?
It would be very hard to argue that your knowledge of engines surpasses that of my 2 year old. And I own both Toyota and VW.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Krauts convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Is that why Toyota also recommends same oils in Europe as VW?
Or you talking about Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge bombs?
It would be very hard to argue that your knowledge of engines surpasses that of my 2 year old. And I own both Toyota and VW.
Toyota, to my knowledge, does not have a secret list of approved oils which you MUST use to maintain your warranty. They just give a spec that you can buy at any parts store in the world, and on any fluids meeting that spec you can expect a lifespan measured in geological terms.
Also, even with those "sludge bombs" Toyota is STILL the most reliable automaker on earth, with VW only recently moving out of last place thanks to Ford's DCT fiasco and Italian cars unfortunately returning to America. So either the problem is nowhere near as widespread as you think, or German cars are just much, much worse.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Krauts convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Is that why Toyota also recommends same oils in Europe as VW?
Or you talking about Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge bombs?
It would be very hard to argue that your knowledge of engines surpasses that of my 2 year old. And I own both Toyota and VW.
Toyota, to my knowledge, does not have a secret list of approved oils which you MUST use to maintain your warranty. They just give a spec that you can buy at any parts store in the world, and on any fluids meeting that spec you can expect a lifespan measured in geological terms.
Also, even with those "sludge bombs" Toyota is STILL the most reliable automaker on earth, with VW only recently moving out of last place thanks to Ford's DCT fiasco and Italian cars unfortunately returning to America. So either the problem is nowhere near as widespread as you think, or German cars are just much, much worse.
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502 oil is available anywhere SN oil is available (ok, maybe not Joe's gas station in nowhere South Dakota) and costs the same. It is not exactly hard to find.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Krauts convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Is that why Toyota also recommends same oils in Europe as VW?
Or you talking about Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge bombs?
It would be very hard to argue that your knowledge of engines surpasses that of my 2 year old. And I own both Toyota and VW.
Toyota, to my knowledge, does not have a secret list of approved oils which you MUST use to maintain your warranty. They just give a spec that you can buy at any parts store in the world, and on any fluids meeting that spec you can expect a lifespan measured in geological terms.
Also, even with those "sludge bombs" Toyota is STILL the most reliable automaker on earth, with VW only recently moving out of last place thanks to Ford's DCT fiasco and Italian cars unfortunately returning to America. So either the problem is nowhere near as widespread as you think, or German cars are just much, much worse.
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by CARJ
But why? Most here would say Mobil 1 EP 5w-30 is a good oil. Not 502 approved. What makes it fine for a Toyota engine but not okay for a VW engine? How would it cause more wear and deposits?
VW makes garbage engines that are poorly designed and fragile so they have to implement all these specs to keep them from exploding, or to avoid paying for it when they do.
You could run that Mobil 1 in a Honda or Toyota for 250,000 miles and never have a problem, all while making more power, getting the same MPG and not paying outrageous costs for specialized parts and maintenance. VW just wants a reason to void warranties so they don't have to pay for it when their garbage breaks.
The Krauts convincing people they're the world's greatest engineers is the best marketing campaign ever. There's not even a kernel of truth to it, but people believe none the less.
Is that why Toyota also recommends same oils in Europe as VW?
Or you talking about Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge bombs?
It would be very hard to argue that your knowledge of engines surpasses that of my 2 year old. And I own both Toyota and VW.
Toyota, to my knowledge, does not have a secret list of approved oils which you MUST use to maintain your warranty. They just give a spec that you can buy at any parts store in the world, and on any fluids meeting that spec you can expect a lifespan measured in geological terms.
Also, even with those "sludge bombs" Toyota is STILL the most reliable automaker on earth, with VW only recently moving out of last place thanks to Ford's DCT fiasco and Italian cars unfortunately returning to America. So either the problem is nowhere near as widespread as you think, or German cars are just much, much worse.
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
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Edy, you're arguing with a troll in a thread that a separate troll dug out of a one-year grave.
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Edy, you're arguing with a troll in a thread that a separate troll dug out of a one-year grave.
Troll from "fly over state?"
Edy, you're arguing with a troll in a thread that a separate troll dug out of a one-year grave.
Troll from "fly over state?"
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Oh god, this is rich.
Please explain how, exactly, Toyota engines are "less sophisticated"
I'm all ears.
It's funny that you mention the M50, an engine which didn't have variable valve timing until 1993 (when the Japanese untermensch had been using it since the 80s) and it NEVER worked correctly when it did, despite systems from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and even Mitsubishi functioning flawlessly. Truly, the mark of superior engineering is being worse than Mitsubishi...
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Oh god, this is rich.
Please explain how, exactly, Toyota engines are "less sophisticated"
I'm all ears.
It's funny that you mention the M50, an engine which didn't have variable valve timing until 1993 (when the Japanese untermensch had been using it since the 80s) and it NEVER worked correctly when it did, despite systems from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and even Mitsubishi functioning flawlessly. Truly, the mark of superior engineering is being worse than Mitsubishi...
Last edited:
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Oh god, this is rich.
Please explain how, exactly, Toyota engines are "less sophisticated"
I'm all ears.
It's funny that you mention the M50, an engine which didn't have variable valve timing until 1993 (when the Japanese untermensch had been using it since the 80s) and it NEVER worked correctly when it did, despite systems from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and even Mitsubishi functioning flawlessly. Truly, the mark of superior engineering is being worse than Mitsubishi...
Do tell us what makes Toyota engine sophisticated? What makes my 2GR-FE engine sophisticated in this beer can of a vehicle? What makes 5.7 V8 in LC or other SUV's sophisticated? Valve timing is not the end of the world. What makes today DI engines in Highlander and other vehicles sophisticated except it is well, DI< same thing Volvo had in 1998, or VW in 2002?
M50 did not have VANOS, and I sold it with 425k km on the clock, and was still much more of an engine than this V6 hair dryer in Sienna, and we are talking about 1991. It had simple oil chart, same like today's Toyota's. However, testament about BMW engines is the fact that, well, Toyota is using them, not other way around.
Still, as you are obviously not aware, Toyota diesel engines were some of the biggest failures in automotive industry.
And VANOS never worked properly? LOL, well BMW is not built nor intended to be dumb proof. South Dakota market was never their intended marketplace.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Oh god, this is rich.
Please explain how, exactly, Toyota engines are "less sophisticated"
I'm all ears.
It's funny that you mention the M50, an engine which didn't have variable valve timing until 1993 (when the Japanese untermensch had been using it since the 80s) and it NEVER worked correctly when it did, despite systems from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and even Mitsubishi functioning flawlessly. Truly, the mark of superior engineering is being worse than Mitsubishi...
Do tell us what makes Toyota engine sophisticated? What makes my 2GR-FE engine sophisticated in this beer can of a vehicle? What makes 5.7 V8 in LC or other SUV's sophisticated? Valve timing is not the end of the world. What makes today DI engines in Highlander and other vehicles sophisticated except it is well, DI< same thing Volvo had in 1998, or VW in 2002?
M50 did not have VANOS, and I sold it with 425k km on the clock, and was still much more of an engine than this V6 hair dryer in Sienna, and we are talking about 1991. It had simple oil chart, same like today's Toyota's. However, testament about BMW engines is the fact that, well, Toyota is using them, not other way around.
Still, as you are obviously not aware, Toyota diesel engines were some of the biggest failures in automotive industry.
And VANOS never worked properly? LOL, well BMW is not built nor intended to be dumb proof. South Dakota market was never their intended marketplace.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Oh god, this is rich.
Please explain how, exactly, Toyota engines are "less sophisticated"
I'm all ears.
It's funny that you mention the M50, an engine which didn't have variable valve timing until 1993 (when the Japanese untermensch had been using it since the 80s) and it NEVER worked correctly when it did, despite systems from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and even Mitsubishi functioning flawlessly. Truly, the mark of superior engineering is being worse than Mitsubishi...
Do tell us what makes Toyota engine sophisticated? What makes my 2GR-FE engine sophisticated in this beer can of a vehicle? What makes 5.7 V8 in LC or other SUV's sophisticated? Valve timing is not the end of the world. What makes today DI engines in Highlander and other vehicles sophisticated except it is well, DI< same thing Volvo had in 1998, or VW in 2002?
M50 did not have VANOS, and I sold it with 425k km on the clock, and was still much more of an engine than this V6 hair dryer in Sienna, and we are talking about 1991. It had simple oil chart, same like today's Toyota's. However, testament about BMW engines is the fact that, well, Toyota is using them, not other way around.
Still, as you are obviously not aware, Toyota diesel engines were some of the biggest failures in automotive industry.
And VANOS never worked properly? LOL, well BMW is not built nor intended to be dumb proof. South Dakota market was never their intended marketplace.
Here we go, falling back into the "everyone is dumb but me" defense of German cars. That one is always a winner. Almost as good as dodging questions with another question.
If you can't even name one thing that makes your beloved German junk "sophisticated", then it's pretty clear you're not smart enough to be having this discussion. So really, the target audience for German cars. Arrogance is their bread and butter, after all.
By the way, have you ever considered that Toyota is using a BMW engine in the new Supra because they didn't want to design an all new engine for a niche sports car, rather than them being too dumb? You do realize that they had a 3.0 I6 engine that made just about the same power as your vaunted German wundermotor all the way back in 1991, right? It was around the same time that the Aryan supermen in Bavaria could only manage 240hp from their very best engine of the same size, probably because they weren't smart enough to embrace modern technology like Toyota. In fact, Toyota's engines were so far ahead of the German garbage that a regular, mass produced 2JZ-GTE made more horsepower than BMW's hand built homologation specials.
Of course, that's not a fair comparison. The M3 was only a midrange car, after all. Now, if we were to compare BMW's top of the line sports car, the 8 series, to the Supra, BMW was able in their very tippy top of the line model, with less than 2000 ever made, to wring out more horsepower than Toyota (from twice the cylinders and nearly double the displacement) but the end result was a car that was still considerably slower, less reliable, far more complex and literally 3x as expensive. You can replace Supra with 300ZX, 3000GT or RX-7 and the outcome is still the same. BMW's stone age cars couldn't compete with the Japanese even at 3 times the price. But hey, the 8 series had advanced German technology, like 4 wheel steering, similar to that of a 1988 Honda Prelude.
Also, VANOS didn't work because it was garbage, not because everyone on earth is too stupid to comprehend the genius of the Aryan superman.
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota does not have a list since their engines are less sophisticated than was M50 engine in my 1991 BMW E34. However, where Toyota uses sophisticated engines, like European market where fuel prices are very high, and demand for fast car far more present than here, they do use those lists. Actually, two most unreliable diesel engines ever existed on European market in the last two decades were 1.4 and 2.2 engines made by, guess who? Toyota. So now, since beginning of 2000 Toyota buys diesels from BMW (and now for Supra too).
So no, Toyota is not MOST RELIABLE company on earth as their diesels could not make 60k in miles without engines literally disintegrating.
On top of that, it drives like beer can compared to Tiguan I have, including Land Cruiser I own in Europe, which had more issues than my BMW X5 I owned before this atrocity called Sienna.
Edit. since September of this year I had to invest in Sienna more money than in Tiguan since 2013.
Oh god, this is rich.
Please explain how, exactly, Toyota engines are "less sophisticated"
I'm all ears.
It's funny that you mention the M50, an engine which didn't have variable valve timing until 1993 (when the Japanese untermensch had been using it since the 80s) and it NEVER worked correctly when it did, despite systems from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and even Mitsubishi functioning flawlessly. Truly, the mark of superior engineering is being worse than Mitsubishi...
Do tell us what makes Toyota engine sophisticated? What makes my 2GR-FE engine sophisticated in this beer can of a vehicle? What makes 5.7 V8 in LC or other SUV's sophisticated? Valve timing is not the end of the world. What makes today DI engines in Highlander and other vehicles sophisticated except it is well, DI< same thing Volvo had in 1998, or VW in 2002?
M50 did not have VANOS, and I sold it with 425k km on the clock, and was still much more of an engine than this V6 hair dryer in Sienna, and we are talking about 1991. It had simple oil chart, same like today's Toyota's. However, testament about BMW engines is the fact that, well, Toyota is using them, not other way around.
Still, as you are obviously not aware, Toyota diesel engines were some of the biggest failures in automotive industry.
And VANOS never worked properly? LOL, well BMW is not built nor intended to be dumb proof. South Dakota market was never their intended marketplace.
Here we go, falling back into the "everyone is dumb but me" defense of German cars. That one is always a winner. Almost as good as dodging questions with another question.
If you can't even name one thing that makes your beloved German junk "sophisticated", then it's pretty clear you're not smart enough to be having this discussion. So really, the target audience for German cars. Arrogance is their bread and butter, after all.
By the way, have you ever considered that Toyota is using a BMW engine in the new Supra because they didn't want to design an all new engine for a niche sports car, rather than them being too dumb? You do realize that they had a 3.0 I6 engine that made just about the same power as your vaunted German wundermotor all the way back in 1991, right? It was around the same time that the Aryan supermen in Bavaria could only manage 240hp from their very best engine of the same size, probably because they weren't smart enough to embrace modern technology like Toyota. In fact, Toyota's engines were so far ahead of the German garbage that a regular, mass produced 2JZ-GTE made more horsepower than BMW's hand built homologation specials.
Of course, that's not a fair comparison. The M3 was only a midrange car, after all. Now, if we were to compare BMW's top of the line sports car, the 8 series, to the Supra, BMW was able in their very tippy top of the line model, with less than 2000 ever made, to wring out more horsepower than Toyota (from twice the cylinders and nearly double the displacement) but the end result was a car that was still considerably slower, less reliable, far more complex and literally 3x as expensive. You can replace Supra with 300ZX, 3000GT or RX-7 and the outcome is still the same. BMW's stone age cars couldn't compete with the Japanese even at 3 times the price. But hey, the 8 series had advanced German technology, like 4 wheel steering, similar to that of a 1988 Honda Prelude.
Also, VANOS didn't work because it was garbage, not because everyone on earth is too stupid to comprehend the genius of the Aryan superman.
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