OVERKILL
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Yup, that's why my HEMI gets that additive package. I'm a huge fan of the full-SAPS Euro approvals, as you know.
Questions for the “only oils with approvals!” crowd- API vs good oil engineering
- Thread starter SubieRubyRoo
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Actually it does mean that API oils allow varnish but you'll be surprised I'm sure that some formulators blend to a standard which is focused on more than just meeting the minimum requirements under API. However like you've said. If it has the certificate then the product is trustworthy, easier to buy and less expensive.
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As long as an engine doesn’t burn significant oil, there’s no downsides to full-SAPS, but there most certainly are concessions to low-SAPS oils when dealing with thin base oils and lots of VII.
Me, I’ll gladly take the No VII Euro/PAO with high HTHS and deal with the minor downsides that higher HTHS brings for economy.
I’ll never argue against M1, it seems they very rarely just deliver “to the cert”… maybe on some of their lower tier oils, sure.Actually it does mean that API oils allow varnish but you'll be surprised I'm sure that some formulators blend to a standard which is greater than just meeting the minimum requirements under API. However like you've said. It is has the certificate then the product is trustworthy, easier to buy and less expensive.
But I don’t personally recall very many engines at all that have used M1 for long periods and had significant varnish. I think the worst I can remember was a very light golden hue in the areas of low oil flow.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, I take the Full-SAPS Euro additive package as the truly "no holds barred" approach to formulation. There are no restrictions on phosphorous or other additives, so the focus is solely on using the most effective chemistry to meet the performance targets, which includes a massive list of OE approvals. Recently, with oils like M1 FS 0W-40, there has been a change to the detergent/dispersant chemistry for LSPI mitigation (reduced calcium, more magnesium) but otherwise, philosophically, the approach is the same.
Since the xW-40 oils are exempt from the API's phosphorous restrictions, these oils were able to SM, SM, SN, SN+ and SP.
Agree, but then not all M1 oils have an actual API cert yet XOM claims their product do meet the standards under API. We should demand third party verification for these affected XOM products rather than looking at clean valvetrains and bottom ends!I’ll never argue against M1, it seems they very rarely just deliver “to the cert”… maybe on some of their lower tier oils, sure.
But I don’t personally recall very many engines at all that have used M1 for long periods and had significant varnish. I think the worst I can remember was a very light golden hue in the areas of low oil flow.
Actually it does mean that API oils allow varnish but you'll be surprised I'm sure that some formulators blend to a standard which is focused on more than just meeting the minimum requirements under API. However like you've said. If it has the certificate then the product is trustworthy, easier to buy and less expensive.
I think you mean to say ALL oils can allow varnish buildup no?
I don't agree that all API oils have engines experiencing varnish buildup and all non certified oils don't.
The API certified Ravenol and even the 5 dollar a quart M1 I use in a 30k dollar engine even in racing conditions have experienced no buildup.
Same with the 5 dollar a quart API oil in my 230k mile 4runner that gets 10k mile changes.
I must be an outlier?
I'm not and have never suggested API is the end all be all either. I was speaking to certifications be it API, dexos, mb, vw, Porsche whatever
All I've stated is that the original title that API certified oils versus "good oils" is not even a valid concept. A good oil can be API certified. A good oil can be non certified
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No and no.
I wouldn't expect varnish under racing conditions and I doubt there you're using a race oil which only has an API license (no Euro approvals)
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Which oils eliminate varnish buildup in all circumstances and engines then?
I also stated I have a 230k mile 4runner that is a daily short tripper that receives 10k mile changes.
Any ideas why it's not experiencing varnish?
wemay
Site Donor 2023
I can't say that one use-case-scenario is representative of all API oils (blends or synthetic) in all manufacturer's' applications. In addition, varnish is hot topic on Bitog and on some forums, not for 99% of vehicle owners who get all the miles they want out of their vehicles.
I never said anything about that.
As for your 4runner as I said not everyone blends to the minimum and perhaps your engine is just different because it has avg hp/liter
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Ya I imagine as long as the engine runs fine the owner couldn't care less.
I can't think of any current oil which eliminates varnish but there are some which do not generate it (when used according to the prescribed OCI of the automaker). M1 0w40 FS was previously advertised as being able to remove existing deposits but that appears to no longer be the case per their current PDS. Of course degree of success depends on the location of the varnish and the degree of exposure to oil over time.
I was kinda thinking on this… when we were SN or whatever, and Mobil claimed they met SP or whatever like a DECADE before the spec came out… when the game is rigged with a company that decides the certs also being the industry leviathan… it’s kinda bunk, but at least it doesn’t appear M1 is using its position to ride the bottom limits… rather they are steering the certs to require their more expensive additives which is a solid business decision.
In the Giant's defense they do tend to go above and beyond "minimums".
This was in a recent article:
"We want to test everything. We don't just want to pass the minimum suite of tests."
"We were trying to put together an oil that would just crush all of those tests and well exceed the limits for those, "Salvesen says. "Then we tested Supercar on the track with the race teams to make sure that it's going to hold up to track abuse with higher cylinder temperatures, with higher revs, with higher loading and just the extra abuse that you're going to see on the track. It passed in both cases."
"I would say in broad strokes it helps us develop the next generation of Mobil 1," Salvesen says. "So, what you buy in the bottle today at your dealer or at the local store was probably tested on track three to five years ago. Certainly now what the race teams are testing is expected to be the next generation of Mobil 1."
"We don't just want to pass the test to get the checkmark, we do what's called ‘Proof of Performance,'" Salvesen says.
"I think that level of testing, that level of prove-out work is really what we can bring to the table versus most smaller brands."
This was in a recent article:
"We want to test everything. We don't just want to pass the minimum suite of tests."
"We were trying to put together an oil that would just crush all of those tests and well exceed the limits for those, "Salvesen says. "Then we tested Supercar on the track with the race teams to make sure that it's going to hold up to track abuse with higher cylinder temperatures, with higher revs, with higher loading and just the extra abuse that you're going to see on the track. It passed in both cases."
"I would say in broad strokes it helps us develop the next generation of Mobil 1," Salvesen says. "So, what you buy in the bottle today at your dealer or at the local store was probably tested on track three to five years ago. Certainly now what the race teams are testing is expected to be the next generation of Mobil 1."
"We don't just want to pass the test to get the checkmark, we do what's called ‘Proof of Performance,'" Salvesen says.
"I think that level of testing, that level of prove-out work is really what we can bring to the table versus most smaller brands."
See this is what I love about this board. You and I have certainly had topics where we disagree, but yet there are also topics we stand shoulder-to-shoulder.
I get that API is a MINIMUM spec. It should also have performance tiers to accommodate those looking for better performance from their oils. Imagine SN1, SN2, SN3 for example. Each tier meets a higher, more Euro-performance-based standard and also cleanliness. That would be sweet!
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Although scoffed at often times here, i believe the majors do this with their entry level, mid-tier and extended performance synthetic offerings.
Pennzoil FS
Mobil FS
Castrol GTX FS
Pennzoil Plat
Mobil 1
Castrol Edge
Valvoline AFS
Quaker State FS
Pennzoil Ultra
Mobil1 EP
Castrol Edge EP
Valvoline EP
Quaker State EP
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, and it's hard to know how to take that, because it appears they've shifted to using AN's in M1 FS 0W-40, which do in fact clean, so...? Now, at what concentration, and so how much cleaning, I have no idea, but it's a big question mark.
No, I was only me. I do remember NHHEMI though. He and I were grotesquely outnumbered in the RP debate, I mean, RP hatefest.Were you formerly NHHEMI?
The Synerlec oils were not approved, their street oils were, but remember, those were referred to as "purple Valvoline" lol
RP didn't have the owner come on here and extensively answer technical questions, a lot of them providing far more detail than required. Yes, that has a considerable impact on how a company is perceived.
The presence, or lack thereof of "owners of a company" posting here should not have any significant impact on an oils quality perception, unless wholesale bias is clearly at work here. There are reams of technical data always available on most every oil, RP included, that would preclude condemning an oil. Far more than was necessary to NOT call RP a "junk oil" that "makes my 1986 Yugo run rough" and the like.
No, people wanted to blindly hate RP, and they did. With a vengeance. I guess RP should have been a sponsor, to get the LOVE that comes with it.
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