SJ replacement?

[SR5]

The new Rotella T4 15W40 CK-4 oil has 1200 ppm Zinc. For the small block.
http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html

For the Lex I would run a 40 grade Euro A3/B4 oil such as M1 0W40 or Castrol Edge 0W40. They usually have about 1000 ppm zinc, ample cold starting ability, full synthetic, and right at the thin end of the 40 grade - so very close to the 30 grades in viscosity.

 

[littleant]

Agree with SonofJoe. How can a SN oil meet any previous oil spec when zinc levels have been reduced. Are different add packs being used??. I been using QS defy 5W-30 conventional that had good zinc levels. Now QS defy 5W-30 is a synthetic blend now that it meets SN I believe has lower zinc levels. It seems all of the high milage oils are moving to synthetic blend. Even Val maxlife is Synthetic blend and SN. Maybe Rotella or euro??

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Agree with SonofJoe. How can a SN oil meet any previous oil spec when zinc levels have been reduced. Are different add packs being used??. I been using QS defy 5W-30 conventional that had good zinc levels. Now QS defy 5W-30 is a synthetic blend now that it meets SN I believe has lower zinc levels. It seems all of the high milage oils are moving to synthetic blend. Even Val maxlife is Synthetic blend and SN. Maybe Rotella or euro??



Just to clarify, my personal view is that SN oils are excellent oils. That goes for their anti-wear properties as well as their resistance to oxidation.

However I do take issue with these blanket, category-after-category-after-category assurances of 'backwards compatibility'. If we take SJ for example, no SN oil on today's market was ever put through the Sequence IID, IIIE, VE & L38 engine tests which constituted the original API spec because all of the test hardware died a natural death around about 15 years ago. And this to me is important because it was these tests which defined the very oils which much of the 90's engine hardware was designed to use.

Yes, I fully understand the concept of 'test equivalence' (where you substitute a current engine test for a dead one) but in many respects, that misses one very essential point. The first incarnation of any oil category reflects a confused rush to market with the oils being poorly optimised & over-formulated. This is the quality that defines say SJ; as opposed to the highly optimised, low treat stuff that folks like me might arrive at long after the original spotlight has shifted.

PS - by way of analogy, the latest version of Windows is always, by definition, said to be 'backwards compatible'. If this is so, then why won't my super powerful Windows 10 laptop run Lotus 123??? See the problem?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: littleant
Agree with SonofJoe. How can a SN oil meet any previous oil spec when zinc levels have been reduced.

Actually, phosphorus minimums are a more recent thing. Do note that some oils of yesteryear didn't have a lot of zinc content, despite what we're led to believe. Some of the VOAs are here on the board and on Blackstone's site, showing phosphorus content basically what we see now for a lot of oils. There were years where the content certainly peaked, but it's not like we had 1400 ppm from the 1950s to the SJ days.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

the latest version of Windows is always, by definition, said to be 'backwards compatible'. If this is so, then why won't my super powerful Windows 10 laptop run Lotus 123??? See the problem?


Try running a Win 3.1 emulator on your Windows 10 PC.
https://www.howtogeek.com/228689/how-to-make-old-programs-work-on-windows-10/

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: littleant
Agree with SonofJoe. How can a SN oil meet any previous oil spec when zinc levels have been reduced.

Actually, phosphorus minimums are a more recent thing. Do note that some oils of yesteryear didn't have a lot of zinc content, despite what we're led to believe. Some of the VOAs are here on the board and on Blackstone's site, showing phosphorus content basically what we see now for a lot of oils. There were years where the content certainly peaked, but it's not like we had 1400 ppm from the 1950s to the SJ days.


These modern 5W30 API SN & ILSAC GF-5 oil shows 671 ppm (HK) and 811 ppm (ST) zinc.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4227748/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4623831/

This modern Euro A3/B4 oil, Castrol Edge 0W40 (Canada) shows 990 ppm zinc
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4228932/

This modern Euro oil, Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4 (Australia) shows 1063 ppm zinc
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4623160/

This 1973 QS Super Blend 10W40 shows 1176 ppm zinc
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4603932/

Just out of interest

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Low melting point metals (eg Hg or Ga), Mercury can form amalgam with metals like Aluminium, but not iron. Gallium can diffuse along the grain boundaries of Aluminum and Steel, but zinc and phosphorous / phosphate are not know for this.

I honestly can't see how P or Zn atoms can just diffuse into a grain boundary on normal engineering steels from mere surface exposure. And I do spend a lot of my time looking at grain boundaries in rocks and steels with electron microscopes.


FYI, and I'm positive that it's not the issue for cams...(still trying to dig that stuff up)

When looking for marking pens and NDT chemicals, we need certification of low melting point metal and halide free marking pens and compounds.

http://www.corrosionclinic.com/types_of_corrosion/liquid metal embrittlement_LME.htm

Quote:
Liquid Metal Embrittlement (LME) refers to environmental cracking caused by contact with a liquid metal. It is also known or as Liquid Metal Cracking (LMC).

There is a specific combination of liquid metals and stressed metals or alloys that can lead to catastrophic intergranular cracking. For example, carbon steels and stainless steels are susceptible to liquid metal embrittlement by zinc and lithium; aluminum and aluminum alloys are susceptible to liquid metal embrittlement by mercury and zinc; copper and copper alloys are susceptible to liquid metal cracking by mercury and lithium. Cracking is frequently observed to be a single intergranular crack that propagates rapidly, at a rate of 25 cm/s.


Mercury-containing items are prohibited by all airlines as they pose a real risk to the structural integrity of the aircraft which is made of aluminum alloys.

Zinc from galvanized steel parts or zinc-rich paints is frequently found to be responsible for the cracking of welded steel components in various industries.



Mechanisms

What causes liquid metal cracking?

The mechanism of liquid metal cracking is clearly not electrochemical in nature. It is most probably an adsorption-induced cracking. The liquid metal atoms when adsorbed on a susceptible metal or alloy reduces the metal bond strength within the grain boundary regions of the susceptible metal. Under tensile stress, crack initiates and propagates rapidly along the grain boundaries.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: littleant
Agree with SonofJoe. How can a SN oil meet any previous oil spec when zinc levels have been reduced.

Actually, phosphorus minimums are a more recent thing. Do note that some oils of yesteryear didn't have a lot of zinc content, despite what we're led to believe. Some of the VOAs are here on the board and on Blackstone's site, showing phosphorus content basically what we see now for a lot of oils. There were years where the content certainly peaked, but it's not like we had 1400 ppm from the 1950s to the SJ days.


These modern 5W30 API SN & ILSAC GF-5 oil shows 671 ppm (HK) and 811 ppm (ST) zinc.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4227748/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4623831/

This modern Euro A3/B4 oil, Castrol Edge 0W40 (Canada) shows 990 ppm zinc
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4228932/

This modern Euro oil, Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4 (Australia) shows 1063 ppm zinc
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4623160/

This 1973 QS Super Blend 10W40 shows 1176 ppm zinc
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4603932/

Just out of interest


Here's the blackstone tests of a bunch of ancient oil cans.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3474476/1

 

[claluja]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Just to be absolutely clear, the technical basis on which the API makes these all encompassing, 'backwards compatibility' claims are tenuous to the point of being non-existent!


Great point.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Just out of interest

Yes, some nice comparisons there. Some back in the day were under 600, and some of the older stuff was pretty awful.

Of course, some had the content ramped right up. Here is a 1980 version of Pennzoil with 547 ppm phosphorus. I know Blackstone has a bunch of other ones; I just have to do some hunting.

Shannow: I do have to admit I've always heard the cam spalling argument at above a certain phosphorus limit (which is often nebulous), but I have never seen a real source.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Shannow: I do have to admit I've always heard the cam spalling argument at above a certain phosphorus limit (which is often nebulous), but I have never seen a real source.


What's frustrating is that I know that I've read something on it. Not just "they say", but a paper of some sorts, or TSB from an aero engine manufacturer.

Just struggling to find anything these days with Google Ads taking up the first 3 pages before the technical stuff appears.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

FYI, and I'm positive that it's not the issue for cams...(still trying to dig that stuff up)

When looking for marking pens and NDT chemicals, we need certification of low melting point metal and halide free marking pens and compounds.

http://www.corrosionclinic.com/types_of_corrosion/liquid metal embrittlement_LME.htm

Quote:
Liquid Metal Embrittlement (LME) refers to environmental cracking caused by contact with a liquid metal. It is also known or as Liquid Metal Cracking (LMC).

There is a specific combination of liquid metals and stressed metals or alloys that can lead to catastrophic intergranular cracking. For example, carbon steels and stainless steels are susceptible to liquid metal embrittlement by zinc and lithium; aluminum and aluminum alloys are susceptible to liquid metal embrittlement by mercury and zinc; copper and copper alloys are susceptible to liquid metal cracking by mercury and lithium. Cracking is frequently observed to be a single intergranular crack that propagates rapidly, at a rate of 25 cm/s.


Mercury-containing items are prohibited by all airlines as they pose a real risk to the structural integrity of the aircraft which is made of aluminum alloys.

Zinc from galvanized steel parts or zinc-rich paints is frequently found to be responsible for the cracking of welded steel components in various industries.



Mechanisms

What causes liquid metal cracking?

The mechanism of liquid metal cracking is clearly not electrochemical in nature. It is most probably an adsorption-induced cracking. The liquid metal atoms when adsorbed on a susceptible metal or alloy reduces the metal bond strength within the grain boundary regions of the susceptible metal. Under tensile stress, crack initiates and propagates rapidly along the grain boundaries.


Yeah I'm with you on the cams.

The certified safe marking pens makes sense if your turbines are make of high temperature steel (high Ni, Cr, Mo, etc alloys). I'm sure they have a lot of tensional forces when they start to spin. Add F / Cl / Br or low melting point metals and you are in big trouble.

I'm back at work next week, so I'll be able to chat with some metallurgists.

That reference you gave above said
"Zinc from galvanized steel parts or zinc-rich paints is frequently found to be responsible for the cracking of welded steel components in various industries."

I'll ask them about that too and how frequent it truly is.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Garak
Shannow: I do have to admit I've always heard the cam spalling argument at above a certain phosphorus limit (which is often nebulous), but I have never seen a real source.


What's frustrating is that I know that I've read something on it. Not just "they say", but a paper of some sorts, or TSB from an aero engine manufacturer.


My trouble with all this, and I'm happy to be wrong here, is that the outcome is dose dependent. A little bit or ZDDP is good for your cams, but a lot is bad. How ? Very Jekyll and Hyde.

With all the other types of metallurgical failure we have been talking about (SCC, IGC, LME) the material causes of substances like low melting point metal and halides are always bad. The dose tends to just affect the rate of failure or the area covered. Typically with a higher dose giving a shorter time to failure.

With ZDDP in engine oil we can assume the area covered is fairly consistent.

Maybe it's something more mundane, such as particles / precipitates coming out of solution in high ZDDP concentrations, and adding some sort of "grit" to the oil. The failure is then more mechanical rather than metallurgical (eg atomic diffusion along grain boundaries).

Joe's Thiocarboxylic acids make sense too. They can cause corrosion if present with nothing to neutralize them, and a lot can cause more corrosion or overwhelm the base present.

 

[Drew1987]

Wow thanks for all this guys. Shame I can’t get that Ausie oil here....

I’ll use the rotella in the small block

 

[Drew1987]

Just out of curiosity, that Walmart brand Supertek makes comparable diesel oil’s to shell… Every penny saved is a good thing… How are the specs? Does anybody know and the 15 W 40

It’s especially important to save a few bucks, as I’ll be changing the oil a lot as I do some internal engine cleaning

 

[Drew1987]

Last question, on its own line at least, that “valvoline made” partsmaster oil... the Lexus (1mz 3.0) uses 4.7 qts of it. Would it be a good idea to put a small amount of added zink?

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: Drew1987
Thanks all That’s what I was worried about

I’m talking about a 2001 Lexus LS430 i may even trade for my 2002 Es300. Ls has 146,000 already so the “damage” would already be done. This is pure insanity that oil isn’t as protective as it was when 20 years ago. I wish someone would make a catalytic safe additive (not a fan of additives usually) that brings SN to a little better standard.

For my flat tappet smallblock, I use $8.20 per quart Brad Penn Green Oil which is 2000ish ppm zink and great for antiques. I so badly wish there was something at Walmart or one of the candy stores (autozone) that was $20/5qt jug that would be ok, but other than maybe diesel 15w-40, I don’t think there is.

Same with the Lexus (Lexi?) either of them will see 28,000 miles per year with me, $8/quart oil may not seem a lot of money but things add up when your a family of 4 conservatively living in one income. I know that’s personal but it sheds some light on why this maters to me.


I use 89 octane in our Honda 3.5. 91+ in the Lexus 3.0. Always seek out the original equipment but not from the dealer. Like Denso and Aisin. So I’m not cheap, but after I find whats best, I look for the best price on that


Built and run quite a few Chebies. The big issue with cam failure has two sources. 1.) is cam core hardness. 2.) The other is lifter radii and face hardness. If either is off, you will loose the lifter radial geometry (cupping will occur) and then the cam lobe will die.

The 1980's were not kind to GM and they lost many cams. But if yours is not ticking and clattering, you may well have dodged a bullet

Oil will not save a pore cam core ... Never has, never will.

Since you are running OEM spring pressures on a well broken in GM cam, I don't see an issue at all on running a modern modest ZDDP oil. If it were me, I'd run Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) which still has over 1,000 PPM ZDDP and is really a robust oil. Available from Amazon any day of the week and will not break the bank. It has good anti-foaming properties and can stand the heat. It is my go-to oil for all flat tappet builds.

The Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs Driven ultra-high ZDDP oils may(?) be needed for high spring pressure steep ramp builds, but not for any factory cam. If you are installing an aftermarket cam(?), you need a proper solution which will include premium lifters. Howards Direct Lube or Crower Sam Saver lifters are the best (made by Johnson). They come with correct lifter radii and face hardness. If an all Howards kit is used, it comes with a 5 year guarantee, and a note about what oil to use

 

[Ether]

Would a high ZDDP SJ oil benefit a European 4 cylinder Engine that runs a very stiff valve spring arrangement,the load at full lift is apparently 220lbs.The Engine is known for Cam wear,i am currently running an SL 10w40,but this oil has recently moved up to SN,so i am assuming less ZDDP?

 

[BrocLuno]

220 is not overly high, if that is the figure for "over the nose" on the cam? If that is seat pressure, yeah that's getting right up there

So the next question is lifter or follower arrangement? If flat tappet (not really flat, but ...) acting directly on the cam lobe and relying on rotation (spin) to keep wear in check; then yes, it's needs >800 PPM ZDDP of the right kind. But, it also needs really good base oils and high HTHS.

So the hunt is for very strong add pak, enough ZDDP, and excellent base oils. Dino or syn, makes no difference - has to be robust.

That's where it all come off the rails. As the hunt progresses you (we) get all sorts "my dad did this" or my "uncle races and he uses"... But they are invariably not talking about the same engine with the same mods. So it likely does not apply.

If you are in a car club, or compete in rally's or have a circle of friends with similar cars, you have your own pool to pull from. If not, you have to fall back to well known and proven brands. The one I mentioned above is very good. Valvoline VR-1 is well known and well understood. Some Redline oils will do you well. Motul 300V will do well as long as it's the traditional formula. But, Ravenol has some excellent oils and so does Enos.

You have to do some fact checking and see what others with similar engines say. You can't always rely on rebuilders. They often have a "house brand" they are pushing. It's more nuanced than that. The Porsche A40 list is a good start. It's targeted at temp vs wear, and you may have metallurgy vs wear, so it's only a starting point ...

If I had to start with one oil and do UOA's to see where the wear metals were trending, I'd start with VR-1

 

[Ether]

The cam is a Roller Follower design,so not sure if the 220lbs is seat pressure,or 'over the nose'.For comparison the BL A series Engine has a load pressure of 125lbs.